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I agree with Blackdog; it will take guts and realization that we are dealing with entirely different and hostile civilization that does not fit into Western system of values and order. It took 9/11 for America to wake up, it will take a similar act in Europe for EU to do the same. In the end either Islam morphs into a religion that allows coexistence and respects others or Western civilization will disappear all together.
I don`t like muslim especially in my country Indonesia,they are so sick.If u live in indonesia as non Muslim then you can feel the hell.They don`t like me because I am non muslim,they almost catched and rape me during the riot,just because my face is look like a chinese,even I explained them that I was real 100 % Javanese…they didn`t believe me…I hate Muslim
I could make a movie with selections from the Bible and quotes from extremist Christians that would be just as inciteful. What is the purpose of this film? To educate? No, it is to promote hatred of Muslims and their religion. The creators of this film are as biased and filled with hate as the extremist muslims they attempt to condemn.
Freedom of speech means you might not like what other people have to say. Who are the terrorists? I would say the meaningless and endless war in Iraq and Afghanistan has caused more death than Muslim terrorists worldwide last year.
Wilder has put his head out on the stone, I agree wholeheartedly, if you want to be a practicing Muslim you cannot do it within a democratic system, Why on earth we would allow such a mass migration is beyond my limited political knowledge but i am offended seeing woman covered head to toe, If I had only known what Sharia’s law was years back when they tried to get Canada to recognize it!!! I would have been there and made sure people knew what it was! Mohammed was a pedophile , and any religion that needs to repress woman to any degree instead of celebrating what a woman brings to the world, the family..naturaly any belief that shows hatred towards love (homosexuality) Is so fear based to begin with that all they can do is spread their fear and hate.. buy appealing to the lowest of human traits…. only the truly intelligent humanists among us are evolved enough to see this is as just another cult of sheep and sheppards….
At least this movie puts the light on the cockroaches hiding in the cupboard. 3ndr4 seems a little upset. Perhaps he/she was in the crowd in Bosnia that burned down the churches and monastry. Jane could not make a movie like Fitna out of selections from the Bible that was authentic, these are just words. She if obviously one of those strange left wing people that fail the logic test, which of course is difficult when your head is buried in the sand.
Well, many muslim are fanatics and don’t respect the moral boundaries of other human being. They want tolerance which they don’t show to other people. Sure, christians were also radical for 1000 years (crusades, inquisition, etc.) but we learned from that and we had an enlightment. The western countries respect more the morality of other than muslim. In nearly no one arabic constitution you will read something about human rights…only their own rights which are like at the feudal age in europe. We can’t tolerate brutality, intolerance and ignorance! They laugh about jesus caricatures or about jahwe…but don’t take allah or mohammed in your mouth and they want to cut off your head..
The Quran isn’t a bad book, but a book with chapters full of hate, like the bible in the old testament…
Read the koran, and you will see this movie is accurate. Some people will say the terms are taken out of context. I have read parts of the koran - there is no doubt of the context. There will be many that say mohammed practiced peace, I guess it depends on wether you believe the mohammed of Mecca or mohammed of Medina. Most muslims want to ignore the violent call of the koran, yet they will bow to the pressures of the radical left - for fear of losing their own life. That is why most muslims refuse to speak out against the radicals. Truly, there is little freedom in islam, unless of course you consider striking a woman a freedom. Read the koran for yourselfs, and come to your own conclusions, I have.
Why do you take this movie for real?
This is such a manipulation and I feel really sorry for all the people who think that Islam allows Terrorism.
You have to read the entire Quran to understand that Muslims are only allowed to act in a way of war, when they need to defend theirselves after being attacked.
Of course this is not mentioned in the movie because no one should know the real Islam. STOP ISLAM BASHING.
I am wondering what the movie is supposed to say - “stop islamisation” ??? what do you mean by that? Should it not be allowed to become muslim if you want to. should i be executed if i try to? conclusively, are we right now supposed to take weapons and kill any muslim there is? I really doubt that. Furthermore a lot of things in the movie, especially in the end addresses regional phenomenas that do not apply to the whole muslim world and has nothing to do with the Qur’an. Do you really believe the muslim world is so uncivilised? What about countries like Malaysia, Singapore, Oman, Emirates, Qatar for example? Furthermore the movie addresses more the problems of immigration in the Netherlands in the end. Let us take Moroccans for example: The majority of Moroccans in the Netherlands originate from the northern region of Morocco, where most people are poor and uneducated. These people came to Europe, espec. France, Netherlands, Germany, Italy etc and what are going to do there? correct: Nothing. They only add another burden for the already hard stretched social systems. In the meantime of course they got frustrated why their lives are not getting better because they were told in Europe you will find money on the streets. And what are they doing? Right: What every human being does: Looking for a scape goat first rather than open its eyes and consider that it might be his own fault. In the meantime the youngstars get violent in their ghettos till some holy shining imam or activist has found the answer: It is because we are muslims and they are not. Therefore we cannot make a living. They don’t want us here. For Germany for example, my home country these people have never been properly integrated for more than 30-40 years now. As usual governments do not address problems till it is too late. Esp. in the 70’s, 80’s and parts of the 90’s immigration rules in Western Europe were based on a kind of humanity approach telling of about: if you are poor and you have no chance at home come to us. And furthermore the growing economies in Europe needed a low class work force, temporaly. But no one took really care of them and obliged them to learn something about their new home countries. The US for example almost always had another approach and therefore they do not have these kind of problems within their country even though they have a big muslim community. Of course people (espec. poor and uneducated) will not integrate if you do not force them to learn the language for example or allow them to participate in the political process. Of course, these people are open for radical ideas if they are not educated and have no prospect for a bright future. The same thing applies not only to the countries where muslims migrated to but also to the majority of their home countries, which are mostly poor and ruled by dictators. Let’s take Egypt. 20% of its population has to live with less than 2 Dollars a day. another 20% has to live with 2 Dollars a day. That makes already 40% of the population. And Egypt is not a democratic country. Its dictatorship. Of course people will tend to join radical movements because they promise them to change the miserable situation they live in. this combined with Analphabetism makes it very easy for these cowards of motherfuckers of radicalists (who are not muslims by the way even if they claim to be and refer to it, but god will make them pay for their sins) to tell people who can not read and write that killing people is pretty fine to achieve your goals and that killing is for a greater good… But I am getting to much into the topic. I just want to say: Do you really believe that more than one billion people (growing number) in the world would feel attracted by such a simple and stupid religion that only tells them to go and kill those who do not think like you? I do not believe so. What the holy Qur’an says is far more sofisticate. But that does not mean that it is misused for assholes of motherfucking radicals. Think about the Nazis. When did they come to power and managed to convince a whole country to follow their stupid ideas? When the situation for people was the worst. Islam is no ideology, it is a religion, something that is supposed to give you guidance and support in your life. Where people are miserable, religion is often misused if it is attractive for that. Not because it is saying something that fits to life denying ideas but because everybody believes in it. That makes it attractive. One last example: In afghanistan the Taliban have systematically eradicated moderate Imams and they have a very close eye on who is Imam in a Mosque. why? Because normal well educated Imams would never ever call for killing other people and they try to get the Talibans out of their communities becaues they motivate people to go into war. That is against the religion and their responsibility as the keeper of the soul of a community, believe it or not. the Taliban know the potential of the religion it has for their purpose. Therefore they are using it. Because it gives a fast nice acces to people, esp. if they are not educated and avoids any questions because everything is for the sake of god. Think of the catholic church. They have done the same thing for centuries…
But all this does not mean that the religion itself is bad!
The movie blames Islam for all the things going on and simply ignores facts and reality. therefore, I am really disappointed by this short sighted movie. If all muslims are like described in the movie, than we (the West) would really have a serious problem which makes 9/11, Afghanistan and Iraq seem like kindergarden action.
I’ve been living in several muslim countries and I have seen how reality is for these people there. Yes, it is a different world but it is not that far away from ours. So please, show that you are an intelligent human being and do not believe in this crap, which is not helping in this very difficult issue but making it worse, which really concerns me.
I am not a Muslim.
this is the most disgusting piece of propaganda I’ve ever seen! This movie is made to cause hate and fear towards Muslims. The movie gives you an impression that all Muslims
are bloodcrazed fanatics. This movie is RACIST!
If you think the frikkin Bibel doesn’t have hateful and sadistic feutures you better think again… Frankly religion sucks, but hatefilms such as this one doensn’t make things better.
Stop Islamisation NOW! Geerd Wilders is the new Winston Churchill, who said this: “An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last.”
i see no use of such hateful old style propaganda stuff. I know that watching a movie produced by an openly hateful person with his own dark and hateful agenda is not the smartest way to learn about what’s going on in the world today. Besides, it is clearly a propaganda stuff, why would I allow anyone to mislead me?
to all those who say read the Koran to see that everything in the movie is true.. i say read a book called ‘God Is Not Great’ by Christopher Hitchens and you will see that every religious text could be portrayed as if it’s calling for violence.
And I am sorry, but i see no difference between the koran and the torah..again read the book i mentioned above..there is a chapter in it called ‘ the nightnightmare of the old testament’ Lots of blood and slaughtering of even children ordered by ‘god’ to to advance the cause of ‘ his people’ However, the old testament is getting away with all that for some reason. Even though the action of some of it’s followers today is not very different from the action of some of those who follow the koran.
The planes flying into the Twin Towers, the women in the burka, the children with blood on their heads, the dead bodies form murder bombers, and the Imams shouting death to Jews, and Infidels did not look fake to me. Which part was not correct?
The film can not be racist, Islam is a religion, not a race, you stupid moon god worshipers.
A hateful movie about (a small minority but getting bigger) hateful people. I agree with many of you that this is a propaganda piece and unfortunately VERY one-sided. However, it makes many good points. Like most religions, islam has been perverted by many of its more radical followers. But what makes this different than previous judaist or christian attrocities is the ABSOLUTE INTOLERANCE of the islamic radical fringe, which has creeped more into the mainstream than many would like to believe. Like others here have noted, it is usually a result of being poor, uneducated, and very little prospects. But these conditions are universl to both the first and third worlds, so what makes islam so different? I believe the basic problem of intolerance in the muslim world (aside from the crusades or american or european foreign policy) is the lack of separation between mosque and state. I’m from a secular country (Canada, eh) and also an agnostic, so I don’t have any religious beliefs to offend. I’ve had some great discussions with jews, catholics and born again christians. They all believe their religion has got it right and the others have unfortunately misinterpreted what their god has told them. I could go on forever about this subject but I’ll close with this observation. I have recently read Christopher Hitchens terrific book on how religion poisons everything. TRUER WORDS HAVE NEVER TOLD. Radical islam will continue to be a global parasite and must be stopped. I dont have a problem with anyone’s religion as long as their not trying to shove it down my throat (as the kuran would have it) or cut off my head.
What a crap paranoid film - which religious text or its contractors cannot be selectively used to create and spread hatred for others. That is the aim, goal, purpose of religion. If you really want to attack the roots, attack all religions - they are all equally shitty. Give rational freedom of thought to all individuals without the shitload of religious proclamations.
The bottom line here is Muslims would consider the movie blasphemous even without the shots of attacks, their victims or the mohammed cartoons. Just the picture of the koran and its translation would be considered an outrage because infidels posted it.
Islam fears scrutiny above all because it is increasingly harder to explain away its tendency to seek militant imams and act on their words. The sad truth is there is not one “moderate Muslim voice with a sizable following. The myth of the moderate is just that a myth.
“I could make a movie with selections from the Bible and quotes from extremist Christians that would be just as inciteful. What is the purpose of this film?”
True statement, but you’d be hard pressed to find many significant acts of terrorism in the recent past done in the name of Christianity. Anti-Christian rhetoric does not incite me to murder. Don’t define us by the crusades 500 years ago. Define us now, as we define you now.
There are many fine Muslims whom reject hatred and intolerance, but unless they take back their religion from the extremists, non-Muslims will continue to define you by the acts of a few. Moderate Muslims must openly reject extremism. Now. Today.
Any religion that discourages independant thought and self awareness is bad in my book. Unfortunately, all of the major world religions fall into this category. The SERIOUS joke here is that the major world religions have been the WORST thing to happen to humanity in the last 1000 years! How many wars? How many people tortured and killed, just for having different ideas and different beliefs?
The SUPER FUNNY joke is that virtually every tenant of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism can be traced back to myths and practices of the old “Pagan” religions of Asia, Europe, and North Africa, from about 5000 years BC.
Muslims hating Christians hating Jews, it’s all a bunch of crap and you’re all a bunch of Idiots! Is George Friggin Bush more powerful than your God? As far as I can tell, he’s pissed all of you off and I haven’t seen any divine intervention to stop him.
Anything that discourages self enlightenment is bad for humanity. There are peaceful religions that I have respect for, but none of them are mainstream, although I have to admit that mainstream religions have not been as closed minded in the last few decades.
The bottom line is this. If we keep pitting religions against each other, or East against West, then sooner or later people who are ordinary and reasonable today will grow so afraid that they will condone severe acts, even nuclear, if they think it is necessary to protect their loved ones and/or way of life. Instead of fighting each other and calling each other “infidel” and “moon god worshiper,” maybe you should try to join forces to fight extremism on BOTH ends of the spectrum.
Maybe god is Elvis Costello, he said, “How about a little peace, love, and understanding.”
Know this as well, I have killed to protect my life and the lives of others, because it was my duty to do so. I don’t regret it. BUT, for a rational person there is no pleasure in it, no glory, no fulfillment. Anyone who thinks killing people is the answer to these problems is crazy, regardless of which side you are on.
First of all, thank you for posting the movie so that I could see it for myself!
Humanity has to wake up and realize that religion is our own invention and that there is no allah, no god. Religion is a form of mental disease and islam is just the most virulent strain.
Free Speech is sacred, nothing else. All religions are false and until Humanity understands this, we will continue to see violence around the world.
I have seen first hand what this religion is capable of. Both bad and good things. Ive been to bahrain, where things are quite civilized, and I’ve been to Iraq, where Ive been shot at, mortared, bombed, rocketed, and grenaded.
One of my Marine friends converted to Islam, and I have asked him lots of questions in order to educate myself. I have read books about Middle Eastern and Muslim culture.
This is what I think,
Islam is not always bad, but there are a growing number of extremists in the world, too many to be called “the few”.
The problem is that too many moderate Muslims don’t speak out against the terrorists acts. In this way they seem to say, “I agree with what they did but dont want to be considered extreme, so Ill just keep my mouth shut.”
For Islam to survive, moderate Muslims that understand the power of love must take control of their own religion, else the world will continue to develop a stereotype view of Islam as a whole.
The US government doesn’t help by waging an unjust war. The elite of the world and US make billions of dollars, while the global economy dips. We spend billions of dollars on killing, when we could take that money and feed the starving children in Africa and all over the world.
im starting to ramble, but
The lesson to learn is this, hate begets hate. Love begets love.
This world will always have bad people, and some higher power will judge them.
But as for me, I dont want my soul to be so filled with hate any longer, for I have seen the consequences.
FREEDOM! FREEDOM! FREEDOM! I dont understand how anyone regardless of race, religion or creed could defend the acts of dictators acting under the authority of Islam. These hatred filled speeches have been spoke before…(Hitler).
The fear that these Islamo-nazi’s have is that the democracy/ FREEDOM in Iraq and Afghanistan will survive, and people will have FREE choice. Make no mistake change is coming to the middle east. These cowards that hide behind their man dresses and brain wash people to kill themselves will lose.
As for the movie I’m glad it was made and I found it here. As a Christian I am not happy when “The last temptation of Christ” or any other movies that question Christianity come out…But I just dont go to them thats my FREE will. Islam needs the same reformation and civil war that Christianity had, and I think it’s coming soon!
This site is not about hate it is about preparation. Your speech sounded like it was from your heart and like you I have befriended, protected and yes hunted muslims. Unlike you, I have slowly come to conclusion that no practicing muslim can ever be a real moderate. Islam is not designed to empower mankind but to control him. The only way to modernize islam from its roots in a seventh century ideology is for muslims to admit that mohammed was a poor choice for a prophet and a worse role model. As long as all manor of evil deeds can be explained away as following his path and guidance islam will continue to be a death cult.
All sects of islam read the same texts and all idolize the madman that was mohammed. All sects of islam believe islam will conquer all other religions and all want to be governed by sharia which is completely incompatible with any modern legal system.
You said you have been reading about islam, great - know your enemy is a basic tenant of military strategy. I think you should continue to study, you are not yet where you need to be.
“You have to read the entire Quran to understand that Muslims are only allowed to act in a way of war, when they need to defend theirselves after being attacked.”
Yes, but they define defense as anything! The Danish cartoons are an “attack” on their religion. Result, Fascism and death. They hold up signs that say “Death to those who insult Islam”. If I insulted you, would that give me the right to kill you? No. If you or anyone else insulted my religion, Christianity, would I be justified in killing you? Heck, I would be justified in killing half of Hollywood, most of San Francisco and my Atheist friend.
Islam is a religion of Hate and evil. I am glade this video was released. We should all stop pandering to these freaks, wipe our donkeys with Muhammad toilet paper while women vote and have a right to worship as we please. If Islam doesn’t like it, then F**K ISLAM
[Note: Comment was "Nice-ified" by Doctor Bulldog]
I have a degree in Islamic Theology, I have read the Qu’ran (correct transliteration) and it’s true that all this stuff in this movie is taken out of context, truly.
But so what? All religions have members that pervert the message. Look at Christianity. All Christ talked about was love, forgiveness and turn the other cheek. Talk to the average Christian evangelical nut case and they think if you don’t go to “their” church you’re going to hell. Sick. But that is not the religion, its the ignorant men and women who pervert the message and teach there kids to do the same.
With Islam, you have these Middle East countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran etc. who have radical elements that want POWER. They want Jewish LAND. They try to get it (and have gotten it) by perverting Islam. They have these totalitarian dictatorships that keep their population uneducated and in the dark, living in some Middle Ages dream state, then they brainwash them with all the poison you see in this fine movie (fine because it reveals what is actually going on in these Middle East shitholes) using a text that was recited by Mohammad 1500 years ago as a way to justify themselves and instill radicalism and fanatacism in the minds of their ignorant populations (like the little girl believing Jewish people are ‘apes and pigs’).
These radicals and terrorists are NOT Muslims. It says in the Qur’an that it is forbidden to kill indiscriminantly, it is forbidden to kill by fire, it is forbidden to kill woman and children, etc. The one overriding message of the Qur’an is that Allah’s mercy precedes his wrath. It also accepts ALL religions based on written texts, like Christianity, Vedanta, Buddhism, and ‘gasp’ the Old Testament, (read: JEWS) etc, as being revelations from Allah and just as valid as the Qur’an. It says in the Qur’an that there are 100,000 prophets, and that Abraham was the first, Jesus was the second to last and Mohammad was the “seal of the prophets”; the last prophet. This is a fact. It is in the Qur’an. These people of other religions are the “Dhimmi” the people of other scriptures and Prophets other than Mohammad (Abraham and Jesus are considered prophets in Islam just like Mohammad, there is even a chapter in the Qur’an called Mary (mother of Christ) and she is venerated as a saint and as a mother of a prophet of Allah). So having said that, these “Muslims” who are featured in this film are hypocrites and liars and perverters. They have hijacked Islam, for Islam, true Islam, is a religion of peace and tolerance. (Any “Muslims” out there that don’t believe this, then guess what, you don’t know you’re own religion and are quite pathetic).
HAVING SAID THAT, these people will be defeated. The WEST have confronted assholes like them before, and we took them down, and we will take them down. The corrupt governments or monarchies or whatever the hell they are in Iran, Saudi Arabia Syria etc. will be laid waste by the West when push comes to shove.
And as soon as that stinking piece of trash Bin Ladden crawls out of whatever shit hole cave he is hiding in, he will be brought to justice. Hopefully in a NYC courthouse.
One more thing: all these terrorist “tough guys” with their little head scarves who think they are so macho stoning little girls and hanging gays, and cutting the clits off of women and shooting the little AK-47’s at defensless women and children get there stinking asses handed to them whenever the US Marines show up. Hmmm… not so tuff after all.
They are in for a rude awakening if they think they are going to “conquer” the West.
One more point: these little middle east countires like Iran think they are hot shit because of their oil, they think there power comes from all this oil.
Oilfields can be bombed.
Refineries can be built. And there is just as much oil in Anwar as there is in Saudi Arabia, so they really aught to learn to mind their manners. After all, they didn’t even know what the hell they had over there until SHELL and EXXON went over there and told these idiots what it was and how to get it out of the ground…
’nuff said.
I have several versions of the koran and found the text accurate but that is not important. In context or out the film highlights the view of islam that has been spread globally and accepted by hundreds of millions of muslims. Islamic verse is and has for 1350 odd years been used to spread violence. If there is a peaceful message in the koran it equates to join us or die.
The attempt to somehow diminish the film by pulling the tired old moral equivalency argument cheapens you and shows you to be anything but a scholar. As soon as the radicalized Christian shows their face on the world stage, I will start an entirely new blog to expose them. The “average Christian evangelical nut case” has never cried out for elimination of entire races, cultures or peoples, never honor killed a relative, never murdered in the name of Jesus or filmed himself beheading someone. The “average muslim nut job has probably committed at least one of those or soon will. The most a radical Christian is probably quilty of is preaching someone to death. The real point is the vast majority of the world’s religions would quickly and effectively condemn radicals especially violent ones, islam does not. No main stream religion other than islam has an armed wing or condones violence encourages it or preaches that one day the entire world will fall victim to it. You simply can not separate the muslim religion and the political system and goals encapsulated in it.
Equally, the myth that muslims have some love of Jesus and Mary has been busted long ago, the only prophet they follow is mohammed a man who if alive today would be guilty of any number of crimes against humanity, murder, slavery, rape, pedophilia and genocide come to mind. I doubt any of those charges would be hard to prove and if Jesus were alive today I doubt any such change would stick, so much for moral equivalency.
The only solution available to muslims is to admit that mohammed was a piss poor choice for role model and each of them should attempt to live their lives doing the exact opposite of his lifestyle choices.
We do agree on islam will fail but for differing reasons. A seventh century ideology is no match for 21st century technology and if pushed too hard the modern world can eliminate the ancient one. I have long maintained there are only two types of muslims pious ones and non-practicing. Many have already seen through the lies of the koran it is just not yet safe enough for them to leave the oppressive societies they are trapped in. The global jihad has been felt in every country, city and hamlet in the ummah and so far has only eliminated the future of muslims by killing off its youth. Even they can not maintain the drain of young men being eliminated at such a rate. Almost every muslim country out there has an active insurgency and fight going on with itself or a neighbor, that speaks volumes about muslim tolerance.
The lesson here is clear, islam can be made to sound good but its actual practices are harder to hide.
Yeah, but you know what, at least we are having a free and open discussion. Each voicing their opinions. We can agree to disagree over various points, but isn’t it a wonderful thing, this thing called free speech?
I would rather have civil discussions as there has to be a wide verity of solutions to this set of complex problems. I think islam is islam but one can not ignore all the differences the individual muslim communities and the cultural nuances. Some are not culturally biased against honest discussion, some will be. You can never win this fight based on scripture it is unchangeable, human nature is not.
If we do not defend ourselves, we lose, if islam wins we and the muslims lose. Mankind has no reason to go backwards.
I used to think the slight differences in the muslim comminutes matter I know longer do. All of them still consider mohemmed to be a role model and that is the biggest reason islam has not progressed. A pious muslim who doesn’t convert is unsalvageable I do believe many muslims are starting to see islam has brought them nothing. The truth is out and as hard as muslims try and fight against it, honest opinions and ideals will continue to freely flow.
We do not have to agree on every point both of us seem to have a similar goal. We both want the future to be better than the past and to see mankind move forward not backwards.
So… If I am understanding what you are saying here, to understand the true intentions behind the Qur’an, you need to research and understand the mindset of the Messenger of the Qur’anic verses - Much like the Supreme Court does when trying to make a ruling on the Constitutionality of a Law, they first must determine what the original framers of the Constitution really meant and what their intent was based upon research and understanding of the mindset of the original framers…
To concede you’re point, given what I outlined as the difference between ‘true’ Islam and the peverted version, far, far too many moderate Muslims have been silent in condeming the radicalized version perpetrated by the terrorists in the Middle East.
To be honest, given my B.A. in Comparative Religion from Stonybrook University (honors), I have to believe at this point in my life that the world in general would probably be a far better place with no religion at all, and just the rule of law.
It saddens my heart to say it, but I’m believing more and more that it is true. There is an ancient saying: “you judge a tree by the fruit it bears” As I look around at ALL the religions, I see nothing but divisevness and ‘rotten fruit’. Perhaps you are right in the sense that now, in the 21st century, its time for manking to leave the churches and the temples and mosques behind us and just do the right thing.
We all know what the right thing is, the “Golden Rule”, treat others as you would like to be treated.
the people in power off the united states better wake up and and wake up fast.don’t let this become a nother HILTLER.we all though nothing about him.look what it cost.all those young u.s.died for our freedom,are you going to give it up. not me.i’ll fight for freedom.give me freedom or give me death.because you loose your freedom, you mind as well be dead.PLEASE I BEG YOU TO PLEASE WAKE UP.WHAT MONEY GOING TO DO YOU IF YOUR DEAD.THE PEOPLE IN POWER OF THE UNITED STATES.WILL BE THE FIRST TO GO.YOU PEOPLE ARE A THREAT TO THEM.MAN DON’T YOU GET IT.YOUR NOT THAT STUIPED.I HOPE NOT.GOD BLESS.
The understanding of Quran and when the certain verses and chapter revealed and overall meaning of it is important. not just cut and paste one verse, as such this movie fitna does. If you read an-nisa verse 89, then you should read verse 90 too.If you read an-nisa verse 56 you should read verse 55 too..so you get wider view.
yeah, like that’ll help solve all those conflicting verses that are suppose to be divinely revealed…
But, “taqlid” is the sign of a true Islamist…
Allah certainly isn’t helping matters any…
Quran 33:36 “It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.”
So, one can’t just pick and chose what one wishes in the Qur’an… Well, that’s all fine and dandy, but Allah itself abrogates verses in the Qur’an, thus creating numerous conflicts, and it is quite smug in its revelation of this:
Qur’an 2:106 “When we cancel a Verse or throw it into oblivion, We replace it with a better one.” Or, if you like: “Whatever Revelation We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We substitute something better.”
That is quite interesting… A god that commands obedience to its revealed will, and then changes its mind with such a willy-nilly free abandonment certainly calls into question its own divinity… How is one to follow such nebulousness from their god?
Well, let’s put all that in the backs of our mind (as I’m sure most Muslims must) and let’s look at your ‘balancing’ theory:
Now, I guess the prohibition on drinking alcohol in one verse of the Qur’an is “balanced” by the other verses that don’t prohibit drinking alcohol…
So, what is it? Can you drink wine, or not? Obviously, ‘balancing’ does nothing to sufficiently solve this conundrum…
And, I suppose that the verses which claim wine to be the handiwork of Satan (5:90, and 2:219), is somehow ‘balanced’ out by the rivers of wine in Paradise (47:15, and 83:22,25)… Gee, if wine is the handiwork of Satan, then just HOW did those rivers of wine get into Paradise? It’s pretty obvious that ‘balancing’ brings about its own set of difficulties when encountering conflicting passages.
The only way to really know which conflicting verse is the correct one to follow is to use the “Doctrine of Abrogation” i.e. - The later verses that were revealed to Muhammad abrogate the earlier verses whenever there is a conflict. That is how the conflict between whether or not to drink wine was eventually resolved by the scholars - the verse prohibiting the consumption of wine was a later verse, and therefore abrogated the earlier verses that didn’t prohibit the drinking of wine.
Since Sura 9, the “sword verses” is considered by most scholars to be Muhammad’s last Sura, they cancel the earlier verses that call for peace and love… So, again, Muslim scholars get into trouble when faced with modernism and trying to fit into society when they use the doctrine of Abrogation…
Now, you could decide to pick and choose all the verses that you want to ‘balance’ all the evil verses, but one has to wonder why Allah, if it truly were God, would choose to contradict itself so much when it is trying to prove its divinity by claiming to have no contradictions:
Quran 4:82 “Do they not then consider the Qur’an carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much contradictions.”
So, what’s a fella’ to do in an effort to resolve and ‘balance’ those conflicting verses? Well, you could try to follow the example set by Muhammad…
Ishaq:464 “The Jews were made to come down, and Allah’s Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina (it is still its marketplace today), and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men. As they were being taken in small groups to the Prophet, they said to one another, ‘What do you think will be done to us?’ Someone said, ‘Do you not understand. On each occasion do you not see that the summoner never stops? He does not discharge anyone. And that those who are taken away do not come back. By God, it is death!’ The affair continued until the Messenger of Allah had finished with them all.”
Well, that didn’t help… Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the Mass Killing of POW’s a crime? Seems odd that a supposed prophet of God would engage in slaughter…
Well, maybe that’s just an aberration, some sort of odd, psychic delusion brought about by suggestion or hypnosis:
What about the ‘compassionate’ prophet:
bukhari - Volume 9, Book 89, Number 280:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
A man came to Allah’s Apostle while he was in the mosque, and called him, saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse.” The Prophet turned his face to the other side, but when the man gave four witnesses against himself, the Prophet said to him, “Are you mad?” The man said, “No.” So the Prophet said (to his companions), “Take him away and stone him to death. ”
(Also found in Sahih Bukhari Vol 7, Book 63, No. 195)
Gee, that’s odd… Not as forgiving about adultery as Jesus Christ was, I guess…
Well, I could go on, but I think it’s clear that Islam is not divinely inspired…
As a Muslim, I feel terrified by the racist comments on this page which is in a way very similar to the logic and comments of AlQaeda leaders. Can anyone of the fanatics here tell me what’s the difference between their logic and Bin Laden’s. You’re both shouting “death to the others! And I think if you have the chance you will go and blast some Muslims too!
And we thought western people are well educated and more civilised! Most of what we see and hear nowadays is a witch hunt by hysteric western people, a high dose of hatred and racism. Have anyone of you even asked himself the following simple questions:
• If Islam is a terrorist religion, the Quran is a terrorist book and Muslims are terrorists by nature, then why Muslims haven’t attacked the west prior to AlQaeda attack in 2001? Muslims have lost millions of their citizens lives in their fight for freedom against the colonial western powers in the 20th century, and yet didn’t try to revenge or attack western countries, or even harm western people living in the Islamic world. why?
• Is it fair to describe 1.5 billion people and their religion of being terrorists based on the actions of one small terrorist group?
• Since all the attacks on USA and Europe are by AlQaeda, then what is the size of this group? how many Muslims really support it or its ideology? Do you know that most Muslim clerics have condemned the ideology and actions of this terrorist group and asked them to quit their terror and become true Muslims?
• Does anybody here knows that AlQaeda have killed more Muslims than they killed in the USA and Europe altogether? Thousands of Muslims died In Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Iraq by AlQaeda bombings. In Jordan they bombed a wedding party killing dozens of innocent people, same happened in Saudi Arabia. In Iraq they caused a blood shed to the degree that Iraqi insurgents fighting the USA occupation turned their weapons to AlQaeda and started cooperating with USA army just to get red of AlQaeda plague that killed thousands of Iraqi civilians.
• Did anybody bother himself to really read the Quran and other Islamic literature before shooting their accusations based on fanatic anti-muslim propaganda? Do you know that there are two chapters in the Quran named after Marry and Aal-Emran (family of Jesus) praising them as being righteous people who devoted their lives to God.
• Does anybody know that killing civilians is totally forbidden by the Quran and the Prophet sayings and by the actions of the prophet and his companions? Muslim armies were given the following strict orders whenever they went into war:” Do not kill any man who doesn’t fight you, do not kill any woman or child, do not kill any priest, do not kill animals or cut trees, do not damage homes or places of worship”. This was 1400 years ago when the world was so brutal and cruel and killing human beings was the easiest thing to do.
• All the verses recited in this hatred propaganda were taken out of context. These verses were during the toughest periods of Islam when all polytheist tribes gathered and declared open war to wipe Islam from the surface of earth. God ordered Muslims to fight back and defend their existence. The verses look intolerant because they are only small piece of the big picture. It was an open warfare and a vital milestone for Muslims existence, same as was World War Two to the Western world against Nazi Germany.
• The clear stand of Islam regarding non Muslims in war and peace is stated in the following verse: “God Doesn’t forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion, nor drove you out of your homes. Verily God loves those who deal with equity”. Sura 60, Verse 8.
• Greet Wilders.. who is he? What is his background? Is he just a concerned Christian from the Islamic threat in Europe or does he has a hidden agenda..? To those who doesn’t know him, the man is totally pro-Israeli and a fanatic supporter of Israel to the extent that his fellow PMs accused him of taking instructions from the Israeli embassy. He visited Israel more than 40 times and the Israeli embassy countless times.. He says that he never felt home except in Israel and he is a good friend to Ehud Olmert and Ariel Sharon..Up to here most of you are asking so what?
• To begin with, Israel is the nemesis of Arabs and Muslims, it is in a sour war with them since its foundation in 1948? Why? Because in 1947 Jewish terrorist gangs and war criminals drove hundreds of thousands of Palestinians out of their homes by killing, raping and terrorizing them to leave everything and run for their lives, to give their homes and lands later to Jews settlers who came from East Europe and Russia. 60 years later and the Middle east is still boiling and will remain unstable as long as the cancer called Israel is not removed. By now you are asking what all this got to do with the ”Fitna” film?
• Well, a major part of Israeli war against Arabs and Muslims is done by pro-Israel western media, politicians and journalists. Hollywood has done the most part in this war by producing 900+ movies ridiculing Arabs and stereotyping them as the worst creatures on planet earth. Western news networks show you the few Israelis killed by Hamas and Hezbullah but turns blind eye to dozens of Palestinians killed in daily Israeli attacks on Gaza and the West bank, including young children and infants, and the one thousand civilians killed in Lebanon (mostly women and children) by the Israeli army in the last Israeli war against Lebanon in 2006.
• The big picture is clear. Wilders is just a small gear in the big machine of Israeli war against Arabs and Muslims. He is their puppet. Israel is taking advantage of the western world to fight its war. Bush is invading the Muslim world on their behalf. Ignorant western people like the hysteric gentlemen writing here, who sounds like they were infected with the rage-against-Muslims virus, are serving Israel purposes as well, without knowing it.
• Last question: can you say about Jews one tenth of what you are saying about Muslims without being accused of anti-Semitism and anti-holocaust, and put into jail for that. Jews say Jesus is the illegal child of some carpenter whom which Marry committed adultery with. The Quran says that Jesus is a prophet and messenger from God born without a father as a miracle from God and his mother Virgin Marry is a saint. So who is closer to you as Christians?
• Finally I would like to thank the few just and courage voices here in this Tsunami of racist comments and ask them not to be bullied by the fanatics who are trying to silence them and ridicule their opinions. Don’t be afraid to swim against the hatred current. This is the real freedom of speech. Insulting and humiliating others is not.
• I say to those fanatics: open your eyes and see who your real enemy is. You think you know everything about Islam but actually you know nothing. You are fed with false information by your deceptive media. All you know is that Islam is an intolerant religion and Muslims are threat to modern civilization. This is what media tells you. You Actually know nothing. If you want to know the truth, then come here, visit the Islamic world, visit Egypt, Dubai, Jordan, Syria, Morocco, Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia, see how Muslims are kind and enjoy they hospitality. I live in Dubai where thousands of westerners live their dream life here. They have all the pleasures in the world in a tax-free country. They prefer living here more than their home countries. Just come and see the truth. Don’t just set and get brain washed by your misleading media.
Were to start??? I did notice that you blame Jews a lot… Oh, I forgot, you might not recognize that term… Allah calls them “apes and pigs.” Does that help? — Yup, bigotry is in the Qur’an…
Can anyone of the fanatics here tell me what’s the difference between their logic and Bin Laden’s? You’re both shouting “death to the others!
1 - Those here aren’t flying planes into buildings - they are discussing issues.
2 - Nope, where did someone say death to all the Muslims? If they did, I must have missed it, but if you point it out for me, I will personally delete it, as that is my site policy..
If Islam is a terrorist religion, the Quran is a terrorist book and Muslims are terrorists by nature, then why Muslims haven’t attacked the west prior to AlQaeda attack in 2001?
9/11/01 was just the most spectacular attack in recent times. The whole history of Islam shows expansion by violence against “western” nations. Even from the very beginnings of American History, Islam has been attacking “the West.” Colonial America had come under attack as early as 1628 - Almost 150 years BEFORE she even declared her independence! Attacks continued well into the late 18th century until the West’s military power began to limit the reach of the Islamic Barbary Coast nations. What? Were you asleep during history class when they talked about that Tripoli Peace Treaty thing? Here’s a quick refresher. Since it’s Wiki, make sure you take the time to verify it before you claim that it’s fake…
So, your claim falls flat, as history has clearly shown the Islamic propensity for violence against the West.
Also, as most of the above comments seem to be coming from atheists, playing the Jesus card has little affect. But, since you asked, I do find that Jews have more in common with Jesus than Muslims. Jesus was born a Jew whose lineage can be traced back beyond King David. Muhammad, on the other hand, well what can I say? If I were to compare Jesus with Muhammad, it is obvious that they DO NOT share the same values. Muhammad married Aisha, a 6 year old child and had sex with her at age 9 - BEFORE she even hit puberty. Jesus; Not married. Muhammad murdered 900 Jewish men and boys in a single day, took their mothers, wives, and children for slaves. That’s just ONE example of many. Jesus NEVER killed anyone, in fact, he brought people back to life… So, I’d have to honestly say that to claim Islam is closely related to Christianity just because the Qur’an mentions that Jesus was a prophet is laughable at best. Islam flatly denies Jesus’ divinity and claims another took His place on the cross… For Islam to deny the basic tenets of the foundations of Christianity is for Islam to distance itself from Christians. As a side note, even Satanists acknowledge Jesus’ divine nature. Should we say that Satanists are closer to Christians than Jews? I think not.
Not only do you err in assuming that no one here has intently studied the Quran and Hadiths (which is the usual claim by Muslims trying to discredit ANY nonbeliever or apostate), you do egregiously err in saying that Muhammad didn’t kill civilians, or those who didn’t fight. I can think of several “Poets” (i.e. - Journalists of their day) Muhammad had killed just because they were criticizing him and he was afraid they would expose him as a false prophet. You might want to do a little research into the assassinations of the poet Ka’b bin Ashraf, the assassination of the poetess Asma bint Marwan (who was breastfeeding her child when she was murdered - Muhammad said, “Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads), the murder of Sallam Huqayq, the decapitation of the slave Ocba for scoffing at Muhammad and telling better stories, the senseless torture and beheading of the Jew Kinanah, and my list goes on and on… If you want to follow a murdering, pedophile, false prophet, that is your business. I choose to spend my time more wisely…
So, to save us both a bunch of useless typing, let me give you the bottom line:
If Islam is a religion of peace, then it is the responsibility of those who are Muslim to take back their religion from those, “misunderstanders” of said religion. It is not my responsibility, nor is it the West’s responsibility, it is YOURS.
To try and convince unbelievers of the supposed “peacefulness” of Islam without first getting a handle on the radical 10 to 20% of your followers who are “misunderstanding” the teachings of your false, murdering, pedophile prophet, is vain at best and will always fall upon deaf ears.
If you truly want to open the lines of communication with the West and truly want the West to stop “misunderstanding” your religion, then simply remove or re-educate the 150 million to 300 million “misunderstanders” in your own religion. Until such time, the West will NEVER listen to your rantings. You and your religion are viewed by your actions, not your words. Right now, the West is rightly justified in judging you based upon the violence and hatred it sees coming out of Islam. Until violence and hatred from your own “misunderstanders” of Islam ceases to exist, your words to the West are empty at best.
Summary for Muslims with A.D.D. - Stop trying to convince the West through your words, and start trying to convince the “misunderstanders” in your own religion through re-education and action! If you used half the effort to convince the “misunderstanders” in your ranks as you do trying to convince the unbelievers, you would probably have them all reigned in by now… That is, assuming Islam is truly a “peaceful” religion.
Again you are blaming all Muslims for the actions of Al-Qaeda. Muslim nations are in war with Al-Qaeda too, what else you want Muslims to do. In Iraq it is Sunni Muslims who defeated Al-Qaeda not the US army. In Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Morocco and other Arab countries, governments are doing their best to expose, defeat and capture Al-Qaeda cells.
I know that you are dogmatic and genuine anti-muslim and that you and your fans will never be convinced by logic, or listen to the sound of reason. You are simply blinded by hatred, and as your alias name suggests, barking is the best thing you do!! In addition to being racist’s best friend!
About the history crap you mentioned, there is a common saying ” If your house is made of glass, don’t throw stones on others!” I don’t think the western history (from Rome to the Catholic Church to the modern western imperial powers) was filled with love and roses, do you? I can write books on Western intolerance, racism and war crimes throughout history as well, but what’s the point, it will be just an endless circle of accusations between me and you.
Describing Arabs as barbaric is expected from a genuine racist like yourself. But for your information, for 900 years Arabs and Muslims were the leaders of civilisation (from eighth to sixteenth century), during which Europe was sunk in its dark ages. Muslims excelled in Medicine, surgery, mathematics, astrology, chemistry, sociology and all other branches of science. They were the first nation to build universities and hospitals. They had millions of books in their public libraries and made thousands of innovations which all humanity have enjoyed and used.
Actually the first barbaric crusaders who entered the Islamic world were astonished by Muslims civilisation with dozens of innovations that they had never saw before, and these are not my words but from a 3-part TV documentary made by the BBC about Islamic civilisation.
Until now Arabic names are still used (in their English version) for many items taken for granted in the western world; are still used in many sciences as well as the names of most nearby stars.
Just google “1000 years of missing history” and “1001 inventions by Muslims”, or check wikipedia on “Islamic civilisation”, if you care to know the truth. Some of the brave western historians and leaders (such as prince Charles) admitted that the whole recent western civilisation was based on the Islamic civilisation. Muslim science, medicine, sociology and philosophy books were taught in western universities until the 18th century and were the driving force to the renaissance age in Europe.
The Quran has encouraged Muslims to learn, explore and educate themselves, since the more you learn the more you get closer to the greatness of God, in the time when Catholic church was executing scientists for their discoveries which contradicted with the church beliefs.
You think that you are a wise guy by bringing some verses from the Quran and ridiculing it. Are you a theologian? You don’t have a clue what these verses are talking about. You are just trying to fool others, but you are only fooling yourself. I can do the same thing to the Bible but I won’t, because we respect other religions and don’t try to mock their holy books.
I’m tired of writing to racists who doesn’t hear any voice except their own. I will conclude with two verses from the Quran (the last book from God to humanity):
“ O mankind, we (God) have created you from male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable of you with God, is that who fears God most (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which God has forbidden)”.Verse 49:13
” And we have sent down to you (O Mohammed) the book (the Quran) in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it (the Bible and Old testament) and overwhelming over it……… The return of you all (human beings) is to God; then he will inform you about that in which you used to differ.” Verse 5:48
For me all Muslims have to be considered potential murderers and I am more and more convinced of that every time I read that kind of propaganda written by Amin and the likes…
Now a few pages about foreign workers in Dubai… and just wait that the oil money invested there by the Iranian mullahs gets to an end and this false paradise will look like hell :
You both are the biggest liars and most deceptive persons I’ve ever seen in my life. I don’t even know where to start, with the gigantic magnitude of your lies.
It is easy to pick a history or biography book of somebody, ignore a thousand pages of good deeds and pick the few lines about odd and isolated events from here and there, amplify it and say how bad that person was, based on those few words and hide the rest of the thousand pages. This is the meanest way of deceiving people, and this is exactly what you are doing. Following this methodology you can portray anybody as being evil as you like, even mother Teresa!
Bulldog, So you have read about the 3 poets who were killed and haven’t read anything about the conquer of Mecca by Muslims. People of Mecca who preferred to worship their idols (statues) and refused the new massage to worship one God, have treated prophet Mohammed and his followers in the worst way. They abused them for 13 years, they put them under extreme humiliation, tortured and killed them, they harmed them in every possible way. After Muslims were ordered by God to leave Mecca and immigrate to Medina (Hijra) to preserve their lives, people of Mecca didn’t leave them alone, they followed them, tried to assassinate prophet Mohammed on his way to Medina. After their failure, they declared war on the new small Muslim community at Medina. For another 9 years they tried to destroy Muslims at every chance. Finally when Muslims had enough power to defeat the polytheist armies of Mecca and conquer Mecca itself what happened? If Prophet Mohammed was a monster as you fool try to depict, he would’ve killed them all, right? WRONG. After Muslim armies surrounded the city of Mecca, he told his sour enemies who fought him for 22 years: GO YOU ARE FREE. Yes he didn’t harm any single one of them. Most of them became Muslims afterwards, and those who remained polytheists were left alone. Even the woman who assassinated the Prophet’s dearest uncle wasn’t harmed by anyway.
I’m sure bulldog had read that and hundreds of similar events but decided not to mention it since it doesn’t serve his evil purposes.
So the Quran describes Jews as apes and pegs? This is the clearest example on how much a big liar are you. Jews are mentioned in hundreds of verses in the Quran, and in all of them are mainly addressed by two names: People of the Book and Sons of Israel. The first being used for Christians too since both have received Holy books from God, and the second name reference to their father Jacob, a prophet who was called Israel as well. The one verse that mentioned dogs and pegs was talking about God’s punishment to a group of Jews who refused to follow Gods orders and killed his prophets.
About Jesus. Yes, Muslims don’t believe that Jesus is the son of God, since God has no sons or daughters, and this contradicts with the basics of Monotheism. If we believed that Jesus is the son of God because he came without a father, then Adam and Eve are also the son and daughter of God! And the divinity thing contradicts with the principle that every human is responsible for his own deeds before God, and will be Judged only by his acts.
Ronin, so Islam has expanded by violence? And your bulldog claims that I was sleeping during history lesson! It seems you both went into coma during that lesson, or maybe had amnesia.
I don’t think the entire world was ever terrorized, humiliated, enslaved and devastated in a global scale as it was during the last few centuries. Why? Maybe because Portuguese, Spanish, British and French armies have marched through the entire world committing every imaginable war crime, occupying the lands of weak nations, enslaving their people and stealing their natural resources. Like a plague, they spread From India to China to Middle East to Africa to North and south America, killing hundreds of millions of people and enslaving millions. They had put entire human races into extinction (such as native americans). They were totally barbaric, cruel, brutal and inhumane in treating with the weaker unfortunate nations.
What about bombing civilian cities with nuclear bombs as US did in Japan. what about destroying entire villages with their citizens in Vietnam, What about slaughtering thousands of civilian Muslims like sheep in the protected UN green zones in Bosnia and the massive raping of Muslim women and young girls by Serbs while Europe and the Vatican were watching it as it was a football game! What about the millions of Africans who were kidnapped from their home lands, enslaved and treated as animals and even thrown from slavery ships to sharks when they got sick! What about burning alive people accused of witchcraft or apostasy by the Catholic church, what about the Spanish Inquisition, what about Nazis and Fachests? The list goes on and on … an endless chain of evil events by the civilized west!!!
Bottom line, you are the last nation on earth who has the right to talk about intolerance, terrorism or violence, because you are the masters of all, period.
So, you admit that Muhammad slaughtered innocent civilians. That’s a start.
Tu quoque is a lame way to distract from the issue. The USA is NOT a religion, it is a Nation. Get over it. We’re talking about a supposed RELIGION of PEACE.
I see that you took my advice are busy converting your “misunderstanders” of Islam on THEIR jihadi websites… Not!
You arguments are pathetic.
“…ignore a thousand pages of good deeds and pick the few lines about odd and isolated events from here and there, amplify it and say how bad that person was…”
Should I also turn a blind eye to Hitler? He did GREAT things for the German people. He was well liked. He was an affable person. But he was a mass murderer, JUST LIKE MUHAMMAD.
Sorry, but your argument doesn’t hold up. It doesn’t matter HOW many nice things an individual has done in their life once they start slaughtering people like cattle.
Let ME leave YOU with a quote from Jesus prophesying about Muhammad:
“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits…” Matthew 7:15-16
when did I admit that Prophet Mohammed slaughtered innocent civilians??? Are you on drugs or something!!
Yes USA is not a religion, Europe is not too, but aren’t you supposed to be the leaders of Christian world? What about your churches and priests, shouldn’t they have said something about enslaving and destroying other nations? Their silence and even stimulating rule means they were completely satisfied by the western imperial policy of destroying non-Christian nations. Was this approved by the Bible and Jesus teachings? If not then which religion they represent exactly?
Wasn’t Hitler a Christian?? Are you convicting yourself? Or you think Hitler was a Muslim too!!
I will leave you with a verse from the Quran: ” The Messenger (Mohammed) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and so do the believers. Each one believes in Allah (God), His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. They say we make no distinction between one another of His Messengers, and they say we hear and we obey. We seek your forgiveness our Lord, and to You is the return (of all)”. Verse 2:285
The last chapter of the bible explains us that in the end of times the Anti-christ will stand up. How we can recognize the anti-christ?
The anti-christ says that God has not got a son. Muslim = Anti-christ
Islam is from the devil
So anyone who says God has no sons is anti-Christ and from the devil?? this means all the world except Christians are anti-Christ and devils, including Jews and Muslims…and all prophets from Noah to David!
Yes at the end of times the Anti-christ will stand up.. we believe in that too because Prophet Mohammed said so. He said also that Jesus Christ will descend from Heavens and lead the final battle against the Anti-Christ, and eventually kills him..
So you are mistaken dood! the description doesn’t fit Muslims. Try Again…
“Bulldog, So you have read about the 3 poets who were killed and haven’t read anything about the conquer of Mecca by Muslims” Blah, blah, blah…
You see, by your acknowledgment of the 3 poets without being able to clearly show that they were not ordered killed by Muhammad is to concede the point and thus admit the point. But, if I misspoke for you, and you think I am not telling the truth, let me help you:
The Assassination of the poetess while suckling her child in the dead of night:
“Ishaq: 676 “‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’ Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’ Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’ Umayr said. ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’ ‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’”
Ishaq:369 “Thereupon Mas’ud leapt upon Sunayna, one of the Jewish merchants with whom his family had social and commercial relations and killed him. The Muslim’s brother complained, saying, ‘Why did you kill him? You have much fat in you belly from his charity.’ Mas’ud answered, ‘By Allah, had Muhammad ordered me to murder you, my brother, I would have cut off your head.’ Wherein the brother said, ‘Any religion that can bring you to this is indeed wonderful!’ And he accepted Islam.”
The murder of Sallam Huqayq:
Tabari VII:101 “The Khazraj asked the Prophet for permission to kill Sallam Huqayq, who was in Khaybar. He granted this.”
Ishaq:482 “One of the favors which Allah conferred upon his Prophet was that these two tribes of the Ansar, the Aws and the Khazraj, used to vie with one another like stallions to carry out the will of Muhammad. The Aws did not do anything which benefited him without the Khazraj saying, ‘By Allah they will not gain superiority over us in Islam in the eyes of the Messenger by doing this.’ And they would not cease until they had done something similar. Thus when the Aws killed Ka’b Ashraf on account of his hostility to Muhammad, the Khazraj conferred to find a man comparable to Ka’b in hostility [i.e. - criticism of Muhammad] and called to mind Sallam Huqayq in Khaybar. They asked the Prophet for permission to kill him, and it was granted.”
Tabari VII:101
Ishaq:483 “Sallam’s wife came out and we told her that we were Arabs in search of supplies. When we entered, we bolted the door on her so she gave a shout to warn him of our presence. We rushed upon him with our swords as he lay in his bed. He took his pillow and tried to fend us off. Abd Allah thrust his sword into his stomach and transfixed him while he was shouting, ‘Enough! Enough!’ At once we went out but Abd Allah had bad eyesight, and he fell off the stairway, bruising his leg or arm. ‘How shall we know that the enemy of Allah is dead?’ one of us asked. ‘I will go and look,’ one replied. He set off and mingled with the people. He said, ‘I found him with the men of the Jews, and with his wife, who had a lamp in her hand, peering into his face. She said, ‘By the God of the Jews, he is dead.’ I never heard any more pleasing words than these. We went to the Messenger of Allah and told him that we had killed the enemy of Allah. We disagreed in his presence about the killing of Sallam, each of us claiming to have done it. The Prophet said, ‘Bring me your swords.’ We did and he looked at them. He said, ‘This sword of Abd Allah killed him. I can see the marks left by bones on it.’”
Ishaq:483 “Allah, what a fine band you have, one willing to kill Sallam and Ashraf! We went with sharp swords, like fighting lions. We came upon their homes and made them drink death with our swift-slaying swords. Looking for the victory of our Prophet’s religion, we ignored every risk.”
The Beheading of the slave (POW - if you prefer) Ocba:
Ishaq: 308
“Halfway to Medina, Ocba was called out to be executed.”
[Since the other prisoners were being held for ransom, Ocba asked Muhammad why he was being treated more harshly than the other captives.]
“The Prophet said, ‘Because of your enmity to Allah and to his Prophet.’
‘And my little girl,’ cried Ocba in bitterness, ‘who will take care of her?’
‘Hell Fire,’ Muhammad responded.
At that moment he was decapitated.
‘Wretch that you were, [Muhammad eulogized] you scoffed at me and claimed that your stories were better than mine. I give thanks that Allah has slain you and comforted me.’”
The Torture and Killing of the Jew, Kinanah in an attempt to find some buried treasure:
Tabari VIII:122/Ishaq:515
“Abi Huqayq [Safiyah's father] held the treasure of the Nadir [the second Jewish tribe Muhammad exiled from Yathrib]. He was brought to Allah’s Messenger, and he questioned him. But Huqayq denied knowing where it was. So the Prophet questioned other Jews. One said, ‘I have seen Kinanah [Safiyah's husband] walk around a ruin.’ Muhammad had Kinanah brought to him and said, ‘Do you know that if we find it, I shall kill you.’ ‘Yes.’ Kinanah answered.”
Tabari VIII:122/Ishaq:515
“The Prophet commanded that the ruin should be dug up. Some treasure was extracted from it. Then Muhammad asked Kinanah for the rest. He refused to surrender it; so Allah’s Messenger gave orders concerning him to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him.”
Bulldog, do you think anybody who says prophet Mohammed did this and that is a reliable source. we have a full field of study of Sunnah (Prophet’s sayings and actions) and classifications of it according to Matn (contents) and Sanad (chain of people who transferred it from one generation to another). Based on all that Sunnah is classified into trustworthy (Saheeh), Good (Hasan), weak (Daeef) and false (Mawdoa).
All what you mentioned, especially the Ishaq’s (an unknown person) falls under the false classification. It is a very clear fraud and ill-fabricated. “She has five children should I feel sorry about her…No Mohammed says…” come on, this is more lame than Hollywood movies. Muslims never killed any woman.
The only right incident is the one about Ka’ab bin Ashraf, he was leading the propaganda war against Muslims and provoking polytheist tribes against them. Killing an enemy in the time of war is not a crime…or is it?
Yeah, you apologists are all alike… If you don’t like the message, discredit the messenger…
Ibn Ishaq’s compilation of Islamic scripture - the inspired Sira, or biography of the prophet - is the earliest and most accurate accounting of Muhammad’s life and of the formation of Islam. It was compiled a century before Tabari, Muslim, and Bukhari - the next earliest sources.
And, if I may continue to quote one of my associates:
“If you care enough about your soul and about the nature of truth, prophets, and God to learn and think for yourself, here’s what you need to do. First, I want you to check the Islamic archives for religious material. What you’ll discover is that everyone recognizes that the oldest surviving record of Muhammad and the formation of Islam was written by Ibn Ishaq. You’ll learn that Ishaq’s original manuscript has been lost but that Hisham retained much of what he wrote. Unfortunately, according to Hisham, he censored Ishaq a hundred years later because he recognized that much of what was known about Muhammad was unflattering. Sadly, you’ll discover that most all of what Hisham left is unflattering too.
Then you’ll discover that Tabari had a copy of Ishaq’s Sira or Sirat and faithfully reported everything. Therefore, if you want to know how Muhammad saw himself, if you want to know what he did and what he said, you’ll need to read Ishaq’s and Tabari’s chronological collection of Hadith. That is the ONLY way to know him and to understand the formation of Islam–to see it in context and from the viewpoint of the only early sources. Not a single word was written about Muhammad, Mecca, Allah, or Islam by any secular historian or by any Muslim scholar within Islam’s first century. All that we know about Muhammad and the creation of the Qur’an is either in Ishaq’s Sira, derived from Ishaq’s Sira, or deduced from hearsay–oral tradition–over two hundred years removed from Muhammad’s death.”
So, you wish to discount a source that was written about 100 years before the Sahih Bukhari???? You are an odd fellow indeed…
Now that you have admitted to one killing of a “propagandist” i.e. - Poet/Journalist, you wish to justify it by saying it was in a time of war… Interesting… Jesus had numerous “propagandists” saying terrible things about him, and he never felt compelled to kill them…
Ye shall know them by their fruits…
(interesting… I have yet to find where in the Qur’an it tells you how to spot a false prophet, however, the Torah AND the New Testament do….)
But, be that as it may, by your logic, Osama bin Laden would be justified in killing “propagandists” i.e. - journalists - because it is a time of war… I’ll be sure to alert the Press…
whatever propagandas were made, we should know that the religions teach and containing a peacefull. but for the each followers, all can be different with many various understanding and perpective. i just want say, in all religion, there’s have a moderate, radical and other in understanding. with this phenomena, in this case, i view, this is a ‘war’ who created by radical group which will response by other radical. unfortunately, this such propaganda will trigging else event continuing violent.
I can go with this debate with you forever, but there is no point of doing that. So this will probably be my last post here.
Bulldog, since you are a strong believer in Ibn Ishaq Sira, then you must believe in the dozens of stories, in the same book, about Jews and Christians of that time knowing that prophet Mohammed was the apostle of God. Their delegates have met with him and they tested his truthfulness, and yet didn’t follow him and fought him for different reasons (Jews because he was not a Jew as they hoped for, and Christians because he was against the Trinity concept and claiming Jesus as son of God).
Anyway, you both have initiated this blog to advertise the Fitna hatred propaganda and to ridicule and attack Islam and the Quran. So I have a couple of suggestions for you.
1) If you want to educate yourself away from the useless racist propaganda like Fitna, and know about Islam from fair western sources, there are many documentaries made by historians and specialists explaining the Islamic history, civilisation, clash with the western world, and what is Islam all about. Some of these are:
- Islam: Empire of Faith, by Ben Kingsley
- Inside Islam (History Channel) (2002)
- The Crusades - Crescent & The Cross (History Channel) (2005)
- Decoding the Past - Secrets of the Koran (History Channel) (2006)
- Mohammed: Legacy of a Prophet (UPF) (www.upf.tv)
- The Rise and Fall of Islamic Spain (UPF & Gardner Movies) (www.upf.tv)
- The Message (30th Anniversary Edition) (1976), by Anthony Quinn
- Or you can just check wikipedia on topics such as “Islamic Golden Age”, “Muslim History”, “Al-Andalus”, “Crusades”, etc.
You can find most of the above (sold on DVDs) on amazon.com.
2) Instead of wasting your time and energy on this hatred campaign, why don’t you make yourselves useful and guide your people to believe in God. According to latest surveys, by BBC and others, two thirds of Europeans doesn’t believe in God! If similar survey was made in USA, I expect the rate would be around 50%. Just watch any western science program to know that they have replaced God with “Mother Nature” or “Universe”. Evolution is taught in your schools as a fact while creation is forbidden because it has religious contents. So why don’t you both enlighten your people and convince them that God exists!
“Say (O Mohammed) He is Allah (God), the One (1), Allah the Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need (2), He begets not, nor was He begotten (3), And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him (4)” Sura 112.
I have never believed mohammed to be anything other than a criminal and have found nothing in the hundreds of books and thousands of articles I have read to change my mind. Frankly any deity that would pick such a man as a role model is in my book stupid and not worthy of human worship. To be fair I have noticed the Christians have a charter to take the worst of mankind into the fold. The difference is they change them for the better. Even in the most whitewashed of islamic histories mohammed grew increasingly violent as he aged and his criminal activities intensified.
We put Fitna online because we found nothing wrong with it. The verbiage coming for senior islamic clerics has proven to be even more outrageous then what we see in Fitna. You are correct I do tend to ridicule islam but what you failed to mention is I never have to make anything up. I simply expose muslims acting out their religious duty and hold them accountable, nothing more. If your fellow believers embarrass you then you should attempt to change them not me.
I have learned a few truths along the way and here are the highlights:
-Islam is an oppressive and violent ideology masquerading as a religion.
-The deity Allah is not the same God worshiped by Christians and Jews.
.
-By today’s standards mohammed would be considered an insane and murderous man.
-Islam has a political arm, a military arm, a recruitment arm and a propaganda/apologist arm.
-There are no moderate muslims, just practicing and non-practicing. All believers of mohammed are guilty of at least passive support to the global engine that is islam. Passive support is still support.
-Westerners still have much to learn about muslim goals, methods and attempts to misdirect them away from them or excuse them away.
-There is no possible moral equivalency between islam and any other main stream religion.
You called this a hate campaign I consider it as an attempt to stop one. Islams hate campaign and goal of world domination is a direct threat to everything I believe in. I will continue to do this as long as I am able. When and if it ever becomes a crime to speak out I guess I’ll follow in the shoes of mohammed and become a criminal. Allahu ackbar baby.
Just because some Jews and Christians were fooled by Muhammad, doesn’t make him a prophet. If Muhammad didn’t go around ordering people to be killed and enslaving women and children (which, by the way, is the REAL reason women were rarely ordered killed by Muhammad, they were a valuable commodity for trade, barter, and sex), then I would give him a little more leeway.
Like I said before, even Hitler had his good side, but that doesn’t change the fact that he was a mass murderer. Had Hitler actually won WWII, then I’m sure he would have been turned into a saint by the sycophants around him that were also reaping the rewards…
THAT is exactly what happened to your false prophet, Muhammad!
Also, as to Muhammad supposedly not killing women, that’s just wrong. He did allow women to be killed:
Bukhari:Vol 4 Book 52 No. 256 “The Prophet passed by and was asked whether it was permissible to attack infidels at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, ‘Their women and children are from them.’”
You should REALLY re-read that a few times to fully absorb the impact of what he is saying…
Also, in the”Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir” written by Ibn Sa’d — Vol 2, page 168 (of the English translation by Moinul Haq):
“The apostle of Allah entered through Adhakhir, [into Mecca], and prohibited fighting.
He ordered six men and four women to be killed, they were (1) Ikrimah Ibn Abi Jahl, (2) Habbar Ibn al-Aswad, (3) Abd Allah Ibn Sa’d Ibn Abi Sarh, (4) Miqyas Ibn Sababah al-Laythi, (5) al-Huwayrith Ibn Nuqaydh, (6) Abd Abbah Ibn Hilal Ibn Khatal al-Adrami, (7) Hind Bint Utbah, ( Sarah, the mawlat (enfranchised girl) of Amr Ibn Hashim, (9) Fartana and (10) Qaribah.
And, just for verification, the Sirat corroborates the Tabaqat’s list, a little at a time.
Here’s an excerpt from page 550 of the Sirat:
“Another [to be killed] was Abdullah Khatal of B. Taym b. Ghalib. He had become a Muslim and the apostle sent him to collect the poor tax in company with one of the Ansar. He had with him a freed slave who served him. (He was Muslim). When they halted he ordered the latter to kill a goat for him and prepare some food, and went to sleep. When he woke up the man had done nothing, so he attacked and killed him and apostatized. He had two singing-girls Fartana and her friend who used to sing satirical songs about the apostle, so he ordered that they should be killed with him.”
And, the Sahih Bukhari, while trying to cover up the killing of women (remember, it was written 100 years AFTER Ibn Ishaq wrote his book, and Bukhari even admits to censoring the numerous sayings of and about Muhammad), it does corroborate the story in snippets:
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 582:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
On the day of the Conquest, the Prophet entered Mecca, wearing a helmet on his head. When he took it off, a man came and said, “Ibn Khatal is clinging to the curtain of the Ka’ba.” The Prophet said, “Kill him.” (Malik a sub-narrator said, “On that day the Prophet was not in a state of Ihram as it appeared to us, and Allah knows better.”
Now, to be honest, I will reveal that ONE of the two slave girls was NOT killed:
On page 551 of the Sirat, we find:
“As for Ibn Khatal’s two singing girls, one was killed and the other ran away until the apostle, asked for immunity, gave it to her.”
So, Muhammad, ever the merciful, let one of the two girls live…
But, that doesn’t change the fact that he ordered women to be killed!!!
So, go ahead, go away from here and follow your false prophet to your hearts content, just know that he IS a false prophet and you are destine for Hell, just like Muhammad when he died.
But, even the false prophet admits in his Qur’an that JESUS IS ALIVE!
Jesus is THE Savior.
John 3:16 - “For God so loved the world that he gave his ONLY begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him SHALL NOT PERISH, but have EVERLASTING LIFE.”
Jesus never took a single life, yet the record clearly shows that Muhammad had thousands killed.
P.S. - Remember what I said in my very first comment to you?:
So, to save us both a bunch of useless typing, let me give you the bottom line:
….. - Stop trying to convince the West through your words, and start trying to convince the “misunderstanders” in your own religion through re-education and action! If you used half the effort to convince the “misunderstanders” in your ranks as you do trying to convince the unbelievers, you would probably have them all reigned in by now… That is, assuming Islam is truly a “peaceful” religion.
If you had listened, you could have saved yourself a LOT of typing!
27 March, 2008 at 8:53 pm
Unfortunately, until something worse happens, I don’t think there will be enough reaction, even though I really liked this movie.
27 March, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Wilder’s interview on Danish TV (in English)
http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2008/03/geert-wilders-video-interview/
28 March, 2008 at 12:08 am
I agree with Blackdog; it will take guts and realization that we are dealing with entirely different and hostile civilization that does not fit into Western system of values and order. It took 9/11 for America to wake up, it will take a similar act in Europe for EU to do the same. In the end either Islam morphs into a religion that allows coexistence and respects others or Western civilization will disappear all together.
28 March, 2008 at 5:11 am
I don`t like muslim especially in my country Indonesia,they are so sick.If u live in indonesia as non Muslim then you can feel the hell.They don`t like me because I am non muslim,they almost catched and rape me during the riot,just because my face is look like a chinese,even I explained them that I was real 100 % Javanese…they didn`t believe me…I hate Muslim
28 March, 2008 at 5:58 am
you full stranger hate…
28 March, 2008 at 7:41 am
I could make a movie with selections from the Bible and quotes from extremist Christians that would be just as inciteful. What is the purpose of this film? To educate? No, it is to promote hatred of Muslims and their religion. The creators of this film are as biased and filled with hate as the extremist muslims they attempt to condemn.
Freedom of speech means you might not like what other people have to say. Who are the terrorists? I would say the meaningless and endless war in Iraq and Afghanistan has caused more death than Muslim terrorists worldwide last year.
28 March, 2008 at 7:47 am
Wilder has put his head out on the stone, I agree wholeheartedly, if you want to be a practicing Muslim you cannot do it within a democratic system, Why on earth we would allow such a mass migration is beyond my limited political knowledge but i am offended seeing woman covered head to toe, If I had only known what Sharia’s law was years back when they tried to get Canada to recognize it!!! I would have been there and made sure people knew what it was! Mohammed was a pedophile , and any religion that needs to repress woman to any degree instead of celebrating what a woman brings to the world, the family..naturaly any belief that shows hatred towards love (homosexuality) Is so fear based to begin with that all they can do is spread their fear and hate.. buy appealing to the lowest of human traits…. only the truly intelligent humanists among us are evolved enough to see this is as just another cult of sheep and sheppards….
28 March, 2008 at 8:18 am
F**k!!!!! with this movie…….what the hell everyone what was give a bad comment to moslem……
Allahhu akbar…
do you take your movie to trash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Note: This comment was cleaned up by Doctor Bulldog
28 March, 2008 at 9:24 am
At least this movie puts the light on the cockroaches hiding in the cupboard. 3ndr4 seems a little upset. Perhaps he/she was in the crowd in Bosnia that burned down the churches and monastry. Jane could not make a movie like Fitna out of selections from the Bible that was authentic, these are just words. She if obviously one of those strange left wing people that fail the logic test, which of course is difficult when your head is buried in the sand.
28 March, 2008 at 9:52 am
Well, many muslim are fanatics and don’t respect the moral boundaries of other human being. They want tolerance which they don’t show to other people. Sure, christians were also radical for 1000 years (crusades, inquisition, etc.) but we learned from that and we had an enlightment. The western countries respect more the morality of other than muslim. In nearly no one arabic constitution you will read something about human rights…only their own rights which are like at the feudal age in europe. We can’t tolerate brutality, intolerance and ignorance! They laugh about jesus caricatures or about jahwe…but don’t take allah or mohammed in your mouth and they want to cut off your head..
The Quran isn’t a bad book, but a book with chapters full of hate, like the bible in the old testament…
Namasté
28 March, 2008 at 10:01 am
Read the koran, and you will see this movie is accurate. Some people will say the terms are taken out of context. I have read parts of the koran - there is no doubt of the context. There will be many that say mohammed practiced peace, I guess it depends on wether you believe the mohammed of Mecca or mohammed of Medina. Most muslims want to ignore the violent call of the koran, yet they will bow to the pressures of the radical left - for fear of losing their own life. That is why most muslims refuse to speak out against the radicals. Truly, there is little freedom in islam, unless of course you consider striking a woman a freedom. Read the koran for yourselfs, and come to your own conclusions, I have.
28 March, 2008 at 11:10 am
This movie scares me.
28 March, 2008 at 11:58 am
Personally, as an American-Iranian, I think that this movie should be shown.
Why is it that we are compelled to tolerate the intollerant?
I think that the time has to send these terrorists and their religion and their prophets to hell….
Down with Islam. Down with world religions!
Iranian Ajax
28 March, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Why do you take this movie for real?
This is such a manipulation and I feel really sorry for all the people who think that Islam allows Terrorism.
You have to read the entire Quran to understand that Muslims are only allowed to act in a way of war, when they need to defend theirselves after being attacked.
Of course this is not mentioned in the movie because no one should know the real Islam. STOP ISLAM BASHING.
28 March, 2008 at 12:09 pm
That is a heavy video. Thanks for the post.
28 March, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Sarah,
Doctrine of Abrogation…. Sura 9 trumps all others… Kill the infidels and establish Islam as the world religion.
That IS the REAL ISLAM. “Moderates” are just apostates who don’t realize it…
“And obey Allah and the Messenger, that ye may obtain mercy.” [Qur’an 3:132]
“Then let those beware who withstand the Messenger’s order, lest some trial befall them, or a grievous penalty be inflicted on them.” [Qur’aan 24:63]
In other words, If you don’t do EVERYTHING that the Qur’an says, you are an apostate and will burn in hell…
Not my words, Muhammads…
28 March, 2008 at 12:18 pm
I am wondering what the movie is supposed to say - “stop islamisation” ??? what do you mean by that? Should it not be allowed to become muslim if you want to. should i be executed if i try to? conclusively, are we right now supposed to take weapons and kill any muslim there is? I really doubt that. Furthermore a lot of things in the movie, especially in the end addresses regional phenomenas that do not apply to the whole muslim world and has nothing to do with the Qur’an. Do you really believe the muslim world is so uncivilised? What about countries like Malaysia, Singapore, Oman, Emirates, Qatar for example? Furthermore the movie addresses more the problems of immigration in the Netherlands in the end. Let us take Moroccans for example: The majority of Moroccans in the Netherlands originate from the northern region of Morocco, where most people are poor and uneducated. These people came to Europe, espec. France, Netherlands, Germany, Italy etc and what are going to do there? correct: Nothing. They only add another burden for the already hard stretched social systems. In the meantime of course they got frustrated why their lives are not getting better because they were told in Europe you will find money on the streets. And what are they doing? Right: What every human being does: Looking for a scape goat first rather than open its eyes and consider that it might be his own fault. In the meantime the youngstars get violent in their ghettos till some holy shining imam or activist has found the answer: It is because we are muslims and they are not. Therefore we cannot make a living. They don’t want us here. For Germany for example, my home country these people have never been properly integrated for more than 30-40 years now. As usual governments do not address problems till it is too late. Esp. in the 70’s, 80’s and parts of the 90’s immigration rules in Western Europe were based on a kind of humanity approach telling of about: if you are poor and you have no chance at home come to us. And furthermore the growing economies in Europe needed a low class work force, temporaly. But no one took really care of them and obliged them to learn something about their new home countries. The US for example almost always had another approach and therefore they do not have these kind of problems within their country even though they have a big muslim community. Of course people (espec. poor and uneducated) will not integrate if you do not force them to learn the language for example or allow them to participate in the political process. Of course, these people are open for radical ideas if they are not educated and have no prospect for a bright future. The same thing applies not only to the countries where muslims migrated to but also to the majority of their home countries, which are mostly poor and ruled by dictators. Let’s take Egypt. 20% of its population has to live with less than 2 Dollars a day. another 20% has to live with 2 Dollars a day. That makes already 40% of the population. And Egypt is not a democratic country. Its dictatorship. Of course people will tend to join radical movements because they promise them to change the miserable situation they live in. this combined with Analphabetism makes it very easy for these cowards of motherfuckers of radicalists (who are not muslims by the way even if they claim to be and refer to it, but god will make them pay for their sins) to tell people who can not read and write that killing people is pretty fine to achieve your goals and that killing is for a greater good… But I am getting to much into the topic. I just want to say: Do you really believe that more than one billion people (growing number) in the world would feel attracted by such a simple and stupid religion that only tells them to go and kill those who do not think like you? I do not believe so. What the holy Qur’an says is far more sofisticate. But that does not mean that it is misused for assholes of motherfucking radicals. Think about the Nazis. When did they come to power and managed to convince a whole country to follow their stupid ideas? When the situation for people was the worst. Islam is no ideology, it is a religion, something that is supposed to give you guidance and support in your life. Where people are miserable, religion is often misused if it is attractive for that. Not because it is saying something that fits to life denying ideas but because everybody believes in it. That makes it attractive. One last example: In afghanistan the Taliban have systematically eradicated moderate Imams and they have a very close eye on who is Imam in a Mosque. why? Because normal well educated Imams would never ever call for killing other people and they try to get the Talibans out of their communities becaues they motivate people to go into war. That is against the religion and their responsibility as the keeper of the soul of a community, believe it or not. the Taliban know the potential of the religion it has for their purpose. Therefore they are using it. Because it gives a fast nice acces to people, esp. if they are not educated and avoids any questions because everything is for the sake of god. Think of the catholic church. They have done the same thing for centuries…
But all this does not mean that the religion itself is bad!
The movie blames Islam for all the things going on and simply ignores facts and reality. therefore, I am really disappointed by this short sighted movie. If all muslims are like described in the movie, than we (the West) would really have a serious problem which makes 9/11, Afghanistan and Iraq seem like kindergarden action.
I’ve been living in several muslim countries and I have seen how reality is for these people there. Yes, it is a different world but it is not that far away from ours. So please, show that you are an intelligent human being and do not believe in this crap, which is not helping in this very difficult issue but making it worse, which really concerns me.
28 March, 2008 at 12:18 pm
[...] Hawt Post?! http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/fitna-english-version/ [...]
28 March, 2008 at 12:19 pm
BURN THE KORAN!!!!
Iranian Ajax
28 March, 2008 at 12:27 pm
I am not a Muslim.
this is the most disgusting piece of propaganda I’ve ever seen! This movie is made to cause hate and fear towards Muslims. The movie gives you an impression that all Muslims
are bloodcrazed fanatics. This movie is RACIST!
If you think the frikkin Bibel doesn’t have hateful and sadistic feutures you better think again… Frankly religion sucks, but hatefilms such as this one doensn’t make things better.
28 March, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Stop Islamisation NOW! Geerd Wilders is the new Winston Churchill, who said this: “An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last.”
28 March, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Thanks ELDAR. I totally agree with you
28 March, 2008 at 12:46 pm
i see no use of such hateful old style propaganda stuff. I know that watching a movie produced by an openly hateful person with his own dark and hateful agenda is not the smartest way to learn about what’s going on in the world today. Besides, it is clearly a propaganda stuff, why would I allow anyone to mislead me?
to all those who say read the Koran to see that everything in the movie is true.. i say read a book called ‘God Is Not Great’ by Christopher Hitchens and you will see that every religious text could be portrayed as if it’s calling for violence.
And I am sorry, but i see no difference between the koran and the torah..again read the book i mentioned above..there is a chapter in it called ‘ the nightnightmare of the old testament’ Lots of blood and slaughtering of even children ordered by ‘god’ to to advance the cause of ‘ his people’ However, the old testament is getting away with all that for some reason. Even though the action of some of it’s followers today is not very different from the action of some of those who follow the koran.
just my two cents here.
28 March, 2008 at 2:52 pm
The planes flying into the Twin Towers, the women in the burka, the children with blood on their heads, the dead bodies form murder bombers, and the Imams shouting death to Jews, and Infidels did not look fake to me. Which part was not correct?
The film can not be racist, Islam is a religion, not a race, you stupid moon god worshipers.
28 March, 2008 at 3:58 pm
A hateful movie about (a small minority but getting bigger) hateful people. I agree with many of you that this is a propaganda piece and unfortunately VERY one-sided. However, it makes many good points. Like most religions, islam has been perverted by many of its more radical followers. But what makes this different than previous judaist or christian attrocities is the ABSOLUTE INTOLERANCE of the islamic radical fringe, which has creeped more into the mainstream than many would like to believe. Like others here have noted, it is usually a result of being poor, uneducated, and very little prospects. But these conditions are universl to both the first and third worlds, so what makes islam so different? I believe the basic problem of intolerance in the muslim world (aside from the crusades or american or european foreign policy) is the lack of separation between mosque and state. I’m from a secular country (Canada, eh) and also an agnostic, so I don’t have any religious beliefs to offend. I’ve had some great discussions with jews, catholics and born again christians. They all believe their religion has got it right and the others have unfortunately misinterpreted what their god has told them. I could go on forever about this subject but I’ll close with this observation. I have recently read Christopher Hitchens terrific book on how religion poisons everything. TRUER WORDS HAVE NEVER TOLD. Radical islam will continue to be a global parasite and must be stopped. I dont have a problem with anyone’s religion as long as their not trying to shove it down my throat (as the kuran would have it) or cut off my head.
28 March, 2008 at 4:52 pm
What a crap paranoid film - which religious text or its contractors cannot be selectively used to create and spread hatred for others. That is the aim, goal, purpose of religion. If you really want to attack the roots, attack all religions - they are all equally shitty. Give rational freedom of thought to all individuals without the shitload of religious proclamations.
28 March, 2008 at 4:56 pm
The bottom line here is Muslims would consider the movie blasphemous even without the shots of attacks, their victims or the mohammed cartoons. Just the picture of the koran and its translation would be considered an outrage because infidels posted it.
Islam fears scrutiny above all because it is increasingly harder to explain away its tendency to seek militant imams and act on their words. The sad truth is there is not one “moderate Muslim voice with a sizable following. The myth of the moderate is just that a myth.
28 March, 2008 at 6:08 pm
“I could make a movie with selections from the Bible and quotes from extremist Christians that would be just as inciteful. What is the purpose of this film?”
True statement, but you’d be hard pressed to find many significant acts of terrorism in the recent past done in the name of Christianity. Anti-Christian rhetoric does not incite me to murder. Don’t define us by the crusades 500 years ago. Define us now, as we define you now.
There are many fine Muslims whom reject hatred and intolerance, but unless they take back their religion from the extremists, non-Muslims will continue to define you by the acts of a few. Moderate Muslims must openly reject extremism. Now. Today.
Thomas
28 March, 2008 at 6:53 pm
“acts of a few.” Sorry Thomas, I do not agree it is acts of a few moon god worshipers giving Islam a bad rap.
28 March, 2008 at 10:42 pm
Any religion that discourages independant thought and self awareness is bad in my book. Unfortunately, all of the major world religions fall into this category. The SERIOUS joke here is that the major world religions have been the WORST thing to happen to humanity in the last 1000 years! How many wars? How many people tortured and killed, just for having different ideas and different beliefs?
The SUPER FUNNY joke is that virtually every tenant of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism can be traced back to myths and practices of the old “Pagan” religions of Asia, Europe, and North Africa, from about 5000 years BC.
Muslims hating Christians hating Jews, it’s all a bunch of crap and you’re all a bunch of Idiots! Is George Friggin Bush more powerful than your God? As far as I can tell, he’s pissed all of you off and I haven’t seen any divine intervention to stop him.
Anything that discourages self enlightenment is bad for humanity. There are peaceful religions that I have respect for, but none of them are mainstream, although I have to admit that mainstream religions have not been as closed minded in the last few decades.
The bottom line is this. If we keep pitting religions against each other, or East against West, then sooner or later people who are ordinary and reasonable today will grow so afraid that they will condone severe acts, even nuclear, if they think it is necessary to protect their loved ones and/or way of life. Instead of fighting each other and calling each other “infidel” and “moon god worshiper,” maybe you should try to join forces to fight extremism on BOTH ends of the spectrum.
Maybe god is Elvis Costello, he said, “How about a little peace, love, and understanding.”
Know this as well, I have killed to protect my life and the lives of others, because it was my duty to do so. I don’t regret it. BUT, for a rational person there is no pleasure in it, no glory, no fulfillment. Anyone who thinks killing people is the answer to these problems is crazy, regardless of which side you are on.
29 March, 2008 at 1:00 am
You can download the movie on my page.
Iranian Ajax
29 March, 2008 at 8:04 am
Iranin Ajax,
Place a link to your site, it may not make it through our security but I will clear it. We lock out posts with links until we check them.
R.
29 March, 2008 at 11:11 am
First of all, thank you for posting the movie so that I could see it for myself!
Humanity has to wake up and realize that religion is our own invention and that there is no allah, no god. Religion is a form of mental disease and islam is just the most virulent strain.
Free Speech is sacred, nothing else. All religions are false and until Humanity understands this, we will continue to see violence around the world.
29 March, 2008 at 8:27 pm
I have seen first hand what this religion is capable of. Both bad and good things. Ive been to bahrain, where things are quite civilized, and I’ve been to Iraq, where Ive been shot at, mortared, bombed, rocketed, and grenaded.
One of my Marine friends converted to Islam, and I have asked him lots of questions in order to educate myself. I have read books about Middle Eastern and Muslim culture.
This is what I think,
Islam is not always bad, but there are a growing number of extremists in the world, too many to be called “the few”.
The problem is that too many moderate Muslims don’t speak out against the terrorists acts. In this way they seem to say, “I agree with what they did but dont want to be considered extreme, so Ill just keep my mouth shut.”
For Islam to survive, moderate Muslims that understand the power of love must take control of their own religion, else the world will continue to develop a stereotype view of Islam as a whole.
The US government doesn’t help by waging an unjust war. The elite of the world and US make billions of dollars, while the global economy dips. We spend billions of dollars on killing, when we could take that money and feed the starving children in Africa and all over the world.
im starting to ramble, but
The lesson to learn is this, hate begets hate. Love begets love.
This world will always have bad people, and some higher power will judge them.
But as for me, I dont want my soul to be so filled with hate any longer, for I have seen the consequences.
29 March, 2008 at 9:28 pm
FREEDOM! FREEDOM! FREEDOM! I dont understand how anyone regardless of race, religion or creed could defend the acts of dictators acting under the authority of Islam. These hatred filled speeches have been spoke before…(Hitler).
The fear that these Islamo-nazi’s have is that the democracy/ FREEDOM in Iraq and Afghanistan will survive, and people will have FREE choice. Make no mistake change is coming to the middle east. These cowards that hide behind their man dresses and brain wash people to kill themselves will lose.
As for the movie I’m glad it was made and I found it here. As a Christian I am not happy when “The last temptation of Christ” or any other movies that question Christianity come out…But I just dont go to them thats my FREE will. Islam needs the same reformation and civil war that Christianity had, and I think it’s coming soon!
29 March, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Marine,
This site is not about hate it is about preparation. Your speech sounded like it was from your heart and like you I have befriended, protected and yes hunted muslims. Unlike you, I have slowly come to conclusion that no practicing muslim can ever be a real moderate. Islam is not designed to empower mankind but to control him. The only way to modernize islam from its roots in a seventh century ideology is for muslims to admit that mohammed was a poor choice for a prophet and a worse role model. As long as all manor of evil deeds can be explained away as following his path and guidance islam will continue to be a death cult.
All sects of islam read the same texts and all idolize the madman that was mohammed. All sects of islam believe islam will conquer all other religions and all want to be governed by sharia which is completely incompatible with any modern legal system.
You said you have been reading about islam, great - know your enemy is a basic tenant of military strategy. I think you should continue to study, you are not yet where you need to be.
30 March, 2008 at 12:46 am
“You have to read the entire Quran to understand that Muslims are only allowed to act in a way of war, when they need to defend theirselves after being attacked.”
Yes, but they define defense as anything! The Danish cartoons are an “attack” on their religion. Result, Fascism and death. They hold up signs that say “Death to those who insult Islam”. If I insulted you, would that give me the right to kill you? No. If you or anyone else insulted my religion, Christianity, would I be justified in killing you? Heck, I would be justified in killing half of Hollywood, most of San Francisco and my Atheist friend.
Islam is a religion of Hate and evil. I am glade this video was released. We should all stop pandering to these freaks, wipe our donkeys with Muhammad toilet paper while women vote and have a right to worship as we please. If Islam doesn’t like it, then F**K ISLAM
[Note: Comment was "Nice-ified" by Doctor Bulldog]
30 March, 2008 at 10:09 am
I have a degree in Islamic Theology, I have read the Qu’ran (correct transliteration) and it’s true that all this stuff in this movie is taken out of context, truly.
But so what? All religions have members that pervert the message. Look at Christianity. All Christ talked about was love, forgiveness and turn the other cheek. Talk to the average Christian evangelical nut case and they think if you don’t go to “their” church you’re going to hell. Sick. But that is not the religion, its the ignorant men and women who pervert the message and teach there kids to do the same.
With Islam, you have these Middle East countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran etc. who have radical elements that want POWER. They want Jewish LAND. They try to get it (and have gotten it) by perverting Islam. They have these totalitarian dictatorships that keep their population uneducated and in the dark, living in some Middle Ages dream state, then they brainwash them with all the poison you see in this fine movie (fine because it reveals what is actually going on in these Middle East shitholes) using a text that was recited by Mohammad 1500 years ago as a way to justify themselves and instill radicalism and fanatacism in the minds of their ignorant populations (like the little girl believing Jewish people are ‘apes and pigs’).
These radicals and terrorists are NOT Muslims. It says in the Qur’an that it is forbidden to kill indiscriminantly, it is forbidden to kill by fire, it is forbidden to kill woman and children, etc. The one overriding message of the Qur’an is that Allah’s mercy precedes his wrath. It also accepts ALL religions based on written texts, like Christianity, Vedanta, Buddhism, and ‘gasp’ the Old Testament, (read: JEWS) etc, as being revelations from Allah and just as valid as the Qur’an. It says in the Qur’an that there are 100,000 prophets, and that Abraham was the first, Jesus was the second to last and Mohammad was the “seal of the prophets”; the last prophet. This is a fact. It is in the Qur’an. These people of other religions are the “Dhimmi” the people of other scriptures and Prophets other than Mohammad (Abraham and Jesus are considered prophets in Islam just like Mohammad, there is even a chapter in the Qur’an called Mary (mother of Christ) and she is venerated as a saint and as a mother of a prophet of Allah). So having said that, these “Muslims” who are featured in this film are hypocrites and liars and perverters. They have hijacked Islam, for Islam, true Islam, is a religion of peace and tolerance. (Any “Muslims” out there that don’t believe this, then guess what, you don’t know you’re own religion and are quite pathetic).
HAVING SAID THAT, these people will be defeated. The WEST have confronted assholes like them before, and we took them down, and we will take them down. The corrupt governments or monarchies or whatever the hell they are in Iran, Saudi Arabia Syria etc. will be laid waste by the West when push comes to shove.
And as soon as that stinking piece of trash Bin Ladden crawls out of whatever shit hole cave he is hiding in, he will be brought to justice. Hopefully in a NYC courthouse.
One more thing: all these terrorist “tough guys” with their little head scarves who think they are so macho stoning little girls and hanging gays, and cutting the clits off of women and shooting the little AK-47’s at defensless women and children get there stinking asses handed to them whenever the US Marines show up. Hmmm… not so tuff after all.
They are in for a rude awakening if they think they are going to “conquer” the West.
One more point: these little middle east countires like Iran think they are hot shit because of their oil, they think there power comes from all this oil.
Oilfields can be bombed.
Refineries can be built. And there is just as much oil in Anwar as there is in Saudi Arabia, so they really aught to learn to mind their manners. After all, they didn’t even know what the hell they had over there until SHELL and EXXON went over there and told these idiots what it was and how to get it out of the ground…
’nuff said.
30 March, 2008 at 10:57 am
Steve,
I have several versions of the koran and found the text accurate but that is not important. In context or out the film highlights the view of islam that has been spread globally and accepted by hundreds of millions of muslims. Islamic verse is and has for 1350 odd years been used to spread violence. If there is a peaceful message in the koran it equates to join us or die.
The attempt to somehow diminish the film by pulling the tired old moral equivalency argument cheapens you and shows you to be anything but a scholar. As soon as the radicalized Christian shows their face on the world stage, I will start an entirely new blog to expose them. The “average Christian evangelical nut case” has never cried out for elimination of entire races, cultures or peoples, never honor killed a relative, never murdered in the name of Jesus or filmed himself beheading someone. The “average muslim nut job has probably committed at least one of those or soon will. The most a radical Christian is probably quilty of is preaching someone to death. The real point is the vast majority of the world’s religions would quickly and effectively condemn radicals especially violent ones, islam does not. No main stream religion other than islam has an armed wing or condones violence encourages it or preaches that one day the entire world will fall victim to it. You simply can not separate the muslim religion and the political system and goals encapsulated in it.
Equally, the myth that muslims have some love of Jesus and Mary has been busted long ago, the only prophet they follow is mohammed a man who if alive today would be guilty of any number of crimes against humanity, murder, slavery, rape, pedophilia and genocide come to mind. I doubt any of those charges would be hard to prove and if Jesus were alive today I doubt any such change would stick, so much for moral equivalency.
The only solution available to muslims is to admit that mohammed was a piss poor choice for role model and each of them should attempt to live their lives doing the exact opposite of his lifestyle choices.
We do agree on islam will fail but for differing reasons. A seventh century ideology is no match for 21st century technology and if pushed too hard the modern world can eliminate the ancient one. I have long maintained there are only two types of muslims pious ones and non-practicing. Many have already seen through the lies of the koran it is just not yet safe enough for them to leave the oppressive societies they are trapped in. The global jihad has been felt in every country, city and hamlet in the ummah and so far has only eliminated the future of muslims by killing off its youth. Even they can not maintain the drain of young men being eliminated at such a rate. Almost every muslim country out there has an active insurgency and fight going on with itself or a neighbor, that speaks volumes about muslim tolerance.
The lesson here is clear, islam can be made to sound good but its actual practices are harder to hide.
30 March, 2008 at 11:23 am
Ronin,
You’re angry and ignorant for obvious reasons. But I forgive you.
Steve
30 March, 2008 at 11:27 am
Steven Zore,
I would have to give that round to Ronin…
Cheers
30 March, 2008 at 11:32 am
Yeah, but you know what, at least we are having a free and open discussion. Each voicing their opinions. We can agree to disagree over various points, but isn’t it a wonderful thing, this thing called free speech?
Enjoy!
30 March, 2008 at 11:56 am
Oh, I am… I’ve nuked some popcorn for this one….
Cheers
30 March, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Steve,
I would rather have civil discussions as there has to be a wide verity of solutions to this set of complex problems. I think islam is islam but one can not ignore all the differences the individual muslim communities and the cultural nuances. Some are not culturally biased against honest discussion, some will be. You can never win this fight based on scripture it is unchangeable, human nature is not.
If we do not defend ourselves, we lose, if islam wins we and the muslims lose. Mankind has no reason to go backwards.
I used to think the slight differences in the muslim comminutes matter I know longer do. All of them still consider mohemmed to be a role model and that is the biggest reason islam has not progressed. A pious muslim who doesn’t convert is unsalvageable I do believe many muslims are starting to see islam has brought them nothing. The truth is out and as hard as muslims try and fight against it, honest opinions and ideals will continue to freely flow.
We do not have to agree on every point both of us seem to have a similar goal. We both want the future to be better than the past and to see mankind move forward not backwards.
Cheers
30 March, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Ronin,
So… If I am understanding what you are saying here, to understand the true intentions behind the Qur’an, you need to research and understand the mindset of the Messenger of the Qur’anic verses - Much like the Supreme Court does when trying to make a ruling on the Constitutionality of a Law, they first must determine what the original framers of the Constitution really meant and what their intent was based upon research and understanding of the mindset of the original framers…
Is that about right?
30 March, 2008 at 12:57 pm
“Ronin,
You’re angry and ignorant for obvious reasons. But I forgive you.
Steve”
I am not angry and I’d like to think if I am ignorant, the reason is not obvious. But if I have to set the blame, I’ll blame “society”.
It is nice to be forgiven though, especial when I am ignorant as to what I needed forgiving for.
Cheers,
Ronin
30 March, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Well Ronin,
To concede you’re point, given what I outlined as the difference between ‘true’ Islam and the peverted version, far, far too many moderate Muslims have been silent in condeming the radicalized version perpetrated by the terrorists in the Middle East.
To be honest, given my B.A. in Comparative Religion from Stonybrook University (honors), I have to believe at this point in my life that the world in general would probably be a far better place with no religion at all, and just the rule of law.
It saddens my heart to say it, but I’m believing more and more that it is true. There is an ancient saying: “you judge a tree by the fruit it bears” As I look around at ALL the religions, I see nothing but divisevness and ‘rotten fruit’. Perhaps you are right in the sense that now, in the 21st century, its time for manking to leave the churches and the temples and mosques behind us and just do the right thing.
We all know what the right thing is, the “Golden Rule”, treat others as you would like to be treated.
Peace
30 March, 2008 at 1:23 pm
“treat others as you would like to be treated.”
Uhm… Isn’t that just a paraphrasing of Luke 6:31 from a religious “zealot” - Jesus Christ?
Just saying….
30 March, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Doc,
You got it right. You are the smart one, I am the cute one.
Cheers (Copyright infringement)
Ronin
30 March, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Cheers (TM)
31 March, 2008 at 7:53 pm
It seems the minions have hacked a few sites with this video, well this one still works, enjoy.
1 April, 2008 at 10:16 am
the people in power off the united states better wake up and and wake up fast.don’t let this become a nother HILTLER.we all though nothing about him.look what it cost.all those young u.s.died for our freedom,are you going to give it up. not me.i’ll fight for freedom.give me freedom or give me death.because you loose your freedom, you mind as well be dead.PLEASE I BEG YOU TO PLEASE WAKE UP.WHAT MONEY GOING TO DO YOU IF YOUR DEAD.THE PEOPLE IN POWER OF THE UNITED STATES.WILL BE THE FIRST TO GO.YOU PEOPLE ARE A THREAT TO THEM.MAN DON’T YOU GET IT.YOUR NOT THAT STUIPED.I HOPE NOT.GOD BLESS.
1 April, 2008 at 12:08 pm
The understanding of Quran and when the certain verses and chapter revealed and overall meaning of it is important. not just cut and paste one verse, as such this movie fitna does. If you read an-nisa verse 89, then you should read verse 90 too.If you read an-nisa verse 56 you should read verse 55 too..so you get wider view.
1 April, 2008 at 1:06 pm
yeah, like that’ll help solve all those conflicting verses that are suppose to be divinely revealed…
But, “taqlid” is the sign of a true Islamist…
Allah certainly isn’t helping matters any…
Quran 33:36 “It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.”
So, one can’t just pick and chose what one wishes in the Qur’an… Well, that’s all fine and dandy, but Allah itself abrogates verses in the Qur’an, thus creating numerous conflicts, and it is quite smug in its revelation of this:
Qur’an 2:106 “When we cancel a Verse or throw it into oblivion, We replace it with a better one.” Or, if you like: “Whatever Revelation We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We substitute something better.”
That is quite interesting… A god that commands obedience to its revealed will, and then changes its mind with such a willy-nilly free abandonment certainly calls into question its own divinity… How is one to follow such nebulousness from their god?
Well, let’s put all that in the backs of our mind (as I’m sure most Muslims must) and let’s look at your ‘balancing’ theory:
Now, I guess the prohibition on drinking alcohol in one verse of the Qur’an is “balanced” by the other verses that don’t prohibit drinking alcohol…
So, what is it? Can you drink wine, or not? Obviously, ‘balancing’ does nothing to sufficiently solve this conundrum…
And, I suppose that the verses which claim wine to be the handiwork of Satan (5:90, and 2:219), is somehow ‘balanced’ out by the rivers of wine in Paradise (47:15, and 83:22,25)… Gee, if wine is the handiwork of Satan, then just HOW did those rivers of wine get into Paradise? It’s pretty obvious that ‘balancing’ brings about its own set of difficulties when encountering conflicting passages.
The only way to really know which conflicting verse is the correct one to follow is to use the “Doctrine of Abrogation” i.e. - The later verses that were revealed to Muhammad abrogate the earlier verses whenever there is a conflict. That is how the conflict between whether or not to drink wine was eventually resolved by the scholars - the verse prohibiting the consumption of wine was a later verse, and therefore abrogated the earlier verses that didn’t prohibit the drinking of wine.
Since Sura 9, the “sword verses” is considered by most scholars to be Muhammad’s last Sura, they cancel the earlier verses that call for peace and love… So, again, Muslim scholars get into trouble when faced with modernism and trying to fit into society when they use the doctrine of Abrogation…
Now, you could decide to pick and choose all the verses that you want to ‘balance’ all the evil verses, but one has to wonder why Allah, if it truly were God, would choose to contradict itself so much when it is trying to prove its divinity by claiming to have no contradictions:
Quran 4:82 “Do they not then consider the Qur’an carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much contradictions.”
So, what’s a fella’ to do in an effort to resolve and ‘balance’ those conflicting verses? Well, you could try to follow the example set by Muhammad…
Ishaq:464 “The Jews were made to come down, and Allah’s Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina (it is still its marketplace today), and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men. As they were being taken in small groups to the Prophet, they said to one another, ‘What do you think will be done to us?’ Someone said, ‘Do you not understand. On each occasion do you not see that the summoner never stops? He does not discharge anyone. And that those who are taken away do not come back. By God, it is death!’ The affair continued until the Messenger of Allah had finished with them all.”
Well, that didn’t help… Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the Mass Killing of POW’s a crime? Seems odd that a supposed prophet of God would engage in slaughter…
Well, maybe that’s just an aberration, some sort of odd, psychic delusion brought about by suggestion or hypnosis:
What about the ‘compassionate’ prophet:
bukhari - Volume 9, Book 89, Number 280:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
A man came to Allah’s Apostle while he was in the mosque, and called him, saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse.” The Prophet turned his face to the other side, but when the man gave four witnesses against himself, the Prophet said to him, “Are you mad?” The man said, “No.” So the Prophet said (to his companions), “Take him away and stone him to death. ”
(Also found in Sahih Bukhari Vol 7, Book 63, No. 195)
Gee, that’s odd… Not as forgiving about adultery as Jesus Christ was, I guess…
Well, I could go on, but I think it’s clear that Islam is not divinely inspired…
Cheers
1 April, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Slam, slam, slam, and SLAM!
Poor hanafi, he will lose all his hate when he reads the truth slam, and convert to being a Christian.
Well done Dr.
1 April, 2008 at 10:20 pm
LOTS OF BULLS BUT NO BRAINS
As a Muslim, I feel terrified by the racist comments on this page which is in a way very similar to the logic and comments of AlQaeda leaders. Can anyone of the fanatics here tell me what’s the difference between their logic and Bin Laden’s. You’re both shouting “death to the others! And I think if you have the chance you will go and blast some Muslims too!
And we thought western people are well educated and more civilised! Most of what we see and hear nowadays is a witch hunt by hysteric western people, a high dose of hatred and racism. Have anyone of you even asked himself the following simple questions:
• If Islam is a terrorist religion, the Quran is a terrorist book and Muslims are terrorists by nature, then why Muslims haven’t attacked the west prior to AlQaeda attack in 2001? Muslims have lost millions of their citizens lives in their fight for freedom against the colonial western powers in the 20th century, and yet didn’t try to revenge or attack western countries, or even harm western people living in the Islamic world. why?
• Is it fair to describe 1.5 billion people and their religion of being terrorists based on the actions of one small terrorist group?
• Since all the attacks on USA and Europe are by AlQaeda, then what is the size of this group? how many Muslims really support it or its ideology? Do you know that most Muslim clerics have condemned the ideology and actions of this terrorist group and asked them to quit their terror and become true Muslims?
• Does anybody here knows that AlQaeda have killed more Muslims than they killed in the USA and Europe altogether? Thousands of Muslims died In Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Iraq by AlQaeda bombings. In Jordan they bombed a wedding party killing dozens of innocent people, same happened in Saudi Arabia. In Iraq they caused a blood shed to the degree that Iraqi insurgents fighting the USA occupation turned their weapons to AlQaeda and started cooperating with USA army just to get red of AlQaeda plague that killed thousands of Iraqi civilians.
• Did anybody bother himself to really read the Quran and other Islamic literature before shooting their accusations based on fanatic anti-muslim propaganda? Do you know that there are two chapters in the Quran named after Marry and Aal-Emran (family of Jesus) praising them as being righteous people who devoted their lives to God.
• Does anybody know that killing civilians is totally forbidden by the Quran and the Prophet sayings and by the actions of the prophet and his companions? Muslim armies were given the following strict orders whenever they went into war:” Do not kill any man who doesn’t fight you, do not kill any woman or child, do not kill any priest, do not kill animals or cut trees, do not damage homes or places of worship”. This was 1400 years ago when the world was so brutal and cruel and killing human beings was the easiest thing to do.
• All the verses recited in this hatred propaganda were taken out of context. These verses were during the toughest periods of Islam when all polytheist tribes gathered and declared open war to wipe Islam from the surface of earth. God ordered Muslims to fight back and defend their existence. The verses look intolerant because they are only small piece of the big picture. It was an open warfare and a vital milestone for Muslims existence, same as was World War Two to the Western world against Nazi Germany.
• The clear stand of Islam regarding non Muslims in war and peace is stated in the following verse: “God Doesn’t forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion, nor drove you out of your homes. Verily God loves those who deal with equity”. Sura 60, Verse 8.
• Greet Wilders.. who is he? What is his background? Is he just a concerned Christian from the Islamic threat in Europe or does he has a hidden agenda..? To those who doesn’t know him, the man is totally pro-Israeli and a fanatic supporter of Israel to the extent that his fellow PMs accused him of taking instructions from the Israeli embassy. He visited Israel more than 40 times and the Israeli embassy countless times.. He says that he never felt home except in Israel and he is a good friend to Ehud Olmert and Ariel Sharon..Up to here most of you are asking so what?
• To begin with, Israel is the nemesis of Arabs and Muslims, it is in a sour war with them since its foundation in 1948? Why? Because in 1947 Jewish terrorist gangs and war criminals drove hundreds of thousands of Palestinians out of their homes by killing, raping and terrorizing them to leave everything and run for their lives, to give their homes and lands later to Jews settlers who came from East Europe and Russia. 60 years later and the Middle east is still boiling and will remain unstable as long as the cancer called Israel is not removed. By now you are asking what all this got to do with the ”Fitna” film?
• Well, a major part of Israeli war against Arabs and Muslims is done by pro-Israel western media, politicians and journalists. Hollywood has done the most part in this war by producing 900+ movies ridiculing Arabs and stereotyping them as the worst creatures on planet earth. Western news networks show you the few Israelis killed by Hamas and Hezbullah but turns blind eye to dozens of Palestinians killed in daily Israeli attacks on Gaza and the West bank, including young children and infants, and the one thousand civilians killed in Lebanon (mostly women and children) by the Israeli army in the last Israeli war against Lebanon in 2006.
• The big picture is clear. Wilders is just a small gear in the big machine of Israeli war against Arabs and Muslims. He is their puppet. Israel is taking advantage of the western world to fight its war. Bush is invading the Muslim world on their behalf. Ignorant western people like the hysteric gentlemen writing here, who sounds like they were infected with the rage-against-Muslims virus, are serving Israel purposes as well, without knowing it.
• Last question: can you say about Jews one tenth of what you are saying about Muslims without being accused of anti-Semitism and anti-holocaust, and put into jail for that. Jews say Jesus is the illegal child of some carpenter whom which Marry committed adultery with. The Quran says that Jesus is a prophet and messenger from God born without a father as a miracle from God and his mother Virgin Marry is a saint. So who is closer to you as Christians?
• Finally I would like to thank the few just and courage voices here in this Tsunami of racist comments and ask them not to be bullied by the fanatics who are trying to silence them and ridicule their opinions. Don’t be afraid to swim against the hatred current. This is the real freedom of speech. Insulting and humiliating others is not.
• I say to those fanatics: open your eyes and see who your real enemy is. You think you know everything about Islam but actually you know nothing. You are fed with false information by your deceptive media. All you know is that Islam is an intolerant religion and Muslims are threat to modern civilization. This is what media tells you. You Actually know nothing. If you want to know the truth, then come here, visit the Islamic world, visit Egypt, Dubai, Jordan, Syria, Morocco, Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia, see how Muslims are kind and enjoy they hospitality. I live in Dubai where thousands of westerners live their dream life here. They have all the pleasures in the world in a tax-free country. They prefer living here more than their home countries. Just come and see the truth. Don’t just set and get brain washed by your misleading media.
1 April, 2008 at 11:21 pm
Amin,
Were to start??? I did notice that you blame Jews a lot… Oh, I forgot, you might not recognize that term… Allah calls them “apes and pigs.” Does that help? — Yup, bigotry is in the Qur’an…
Can anyone of the fanatics here tell me what’s the difference between their logic and Bin Laden’s? You’re both shouting “death to the others!
1 - Those here aren’t flying planes into buildings - they are discussing issues.
2 - Nope, where did someone say death to all the Muslims? If they did, I must have missed it, but if you point it out for me, I will personally delete it, as that is my site policy..
If Islam is a terrorist religion, the Quran is a terrorist book and Muslims are terrorists by nature, then why Muslims haven’t attacked the west prior to AlQaeda attack in 2001?
9/11/01 was just the most spectacular attack in recent times. The whole history of Islam shows expansion by violence against “western” nations. Even from the very beginnings of American History, Islam has been attacking “the West.” Colonial America had come under attack as early as 1628 - Almost 150 years BEFORE she even declared her independence! Attacks continued well into the late 18th century until the West’s military power began to limit the reach of the Islamic Barbary Coast nations. What? Were you asleep during history class when they talked about that Tripoli Peace Treaty thing? Here’s a quick refresher. Since it’s Wiki, make sure you take the time to verify it before you claim that it’s fake…
So, your claim falls flat, as history has clearly shown the Islamic propensity for violence against the West.
Also, as most of the above comments seem to be coming from atheists, playing the Jesus card has little affect. But, since you asked, I do find that Jews have more in common with Jesus than Muslims. Jesus was born a Jew whose lineage can be traced back beyond King David. Muhammad, on the other hand, well what can I say? If I were to compare Jesus with Muhammad, it is obvious that they DO NOT share the same values. Muhammad married Aisha, a 6 year old child and had sex with her at age 9 - BEFORE she even hit puberty. Jesus; Not married. Muhammad murdered 900 Jewish men and boys in a single day, took their mothers, wives, and children for slaves. That’s just ONE example of many. Jesus NEVER killed anyone, in fact, he brought people back to life… So, I’d have to honestly say that to claim Islam is closely related to Christianity just because the Qur’an mentions that Jesus was a prophet is laughable at best. Islam flatly denies Jesus’ divinity and claims another took His place on the cross… For Islam to deny the basic tenets of the foundations of Christianity is for Islam to distance itself from Christians. As a side note, even Satanists acknowledge Jesus’ divine nature. Should we say that Satanists are closer to Christians than Jews? I think not.
Not only do you err in assuming that no one here has intently studied the Quran and Hadiths (which is the usual claim by Muslims trying to discredit ANY nonbeliever or apostate), you do egregiously err in saying that Muhammad didn’t kill civilians, or those who didn’t fight. I can think of several “Poets” (i.e. - Journalists of their day) Muhammad had killed just because they were criticizing him and he was afraid they would expose him as a false prophet. You might want to do a little research into the assassinations of the poet Ka’b bin Ashraf, the assassination of the poetess Asma bint Marwan (who was breastfeeding her child when she was murdered - Muhammad said, “Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads), the murder of Sallam Huqayq, the decapitation of the slave Ocba for scoffing at Muhammad and telling better stories, the senseless torture and beheading of the Jew Kinanah, and my list goes on and on… If you want to follow a murdering, pedophile, false prophet, that is your business. I choose to spend my time more wisely…
So, to save us both a bunch of useless typing, let me give you the bottom line:
If Islam is a religion of peace, then it is the responsibility of those who are Muslim to take back their religion from those, “misunderstanders” of said religion. It is not my responsibility, nor is it the West’s responsibility, it is YOURS.
To try and convince unbelievers of the supposed “peacefulness” of Islam without first getting a handle on the radical 10 to 20% of your followers who are “misunderstanding” the teachings of your false, murdering, pedophile prophet, is vain at best and will always fall upon deaf ears.
If you truly want to open the lines of communication with the West and truly want the West to stop “misunderstanding” your religion, then simply remove or re-educate the 150 million to 300 million “misunderstanders” in your own religion. Until such time, the West will NEVER listen to your rantings. You and your religion are viewed by your actions, not your words. Right now, the West is rightly justified in judging you based upon the violence and hatred it sees coming out of Islam. Until violence and hatred from your own “misunderstanders” of Islam ceases to exist, your words to the West are empty at best.
Summary for Muslims with A.D.D. - Stop trying to convince the West through your words, and start trying to convince the “misunderstanders” in your own religion through re-education and action! If you used half the effort to convince the “misunderstanders” in your ranks as you do trying to convince the unbelievers, you would probably have them all reigned in by now… That is, assuming Islam is truly a “peaceful” religion.
2 April, 2008 at 3:18 am
Bulldog,
Again you are blaming all Muslims for the actions of Al-Qaeda. Muslim nations are in war with Al-Qaeda too, what else you want Muslims to do. In Iraq it is Sunni Muslims who defeated Al-Qaeda not the US army. In Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Morocco and other Arab countries, governments are doing their best to expose, defeat and capture Al-Qaeda cells.
I know that you are dogmatic and genuine anti-muslim and that you and your fans will never be convinced by logic, or listen to the sound of reason. You are simply blinded by hatred, and as your alias name suggests, barking is the best thing you do!! In addition to being racist’s best friend!
About the history crap you mentioned, there is a common saying ” If your house is made of glass, don’t throw stones on others!” I don’t think the western history (from Rome to the Catholic Church to the modern western imperial powers) was filled with love and roses, do you? I can write books on Western intolerance, racism and war crimes throughout history as well, but what’s the point, it will be just an endless circle of accusations between me and you.
Describing Arabs as barbaric is expected from a genuine racist like yourself. But for your information, for 900 years Arabs and Muslims were the leaders of civilisation (from eighth to sixteenth century), during which Europe was sunk in its dark ages. Muslims excelled in Medicine, surgery, mathematics, astrology, chemistry, sociology and all other branches of science. They were the first nation to build universities and hospitals. They had millions of books in their public libraries and made thousands of innovations which all humanity have enjoyed and used.
Actually the first barbaric crusaders who entered the Islamic world were astonished by Muslims civilisation with dozens of innovations that they had never saw before, and these are not my words but from a 3-part TV documentary made by the BBC about Islamic civilisation.
Until now Arabic names are still used (in their English version) for many items taken for granted in the western world; are still used in many sciences as well as the names of most nearby stars.
Just google “1000 years of missing history” and “1001 inventions by Muslims”, or check wikipedia on “Islamic civilisation”, if you care to know the truth. Some of the brave western historians and leaders (such as prince Charles) admitted that the whole recent western civilisation was based on the Islamic civilisation. Muslim science, medicine, sociology and philosophy books were taught in western universities until the 18th century and were the driving force to the renaissance age in Europe.
The Quran has encouraged Muslims to learn, explore and educate themselves, since the more you learn the more you get closer to the greatness of God, in the time when Catholic church was executing scientists for their discoveries which contradicted with the church beliefs.
You think that you are a wise guy by bringing some verses from the Quran and ridiculing it. Are you a theologian? You don’t have a clue what these verses are talking about. You are just trying to fool others, but you are only fooling yourself. I can do the same thing to the Bible but I won’t, because we respect other religions and don’t try to mock their holy books.
I’m tired of writing to racists who doesn’t hear any voice except their own. I will conclude with two verses from the Quran (the last book from God to humanity):
“ O mankind, we (God) have created you from male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable of you with God, is that who fears God most (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which God has forbidden)”.Verse 49:13
” And we have sent down to you (O Mohammed) the book (the Quran) in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it (the Bible and Old testament) and overwhelming over it……… The return of you all (human beings) is to God; then he will inform you about that in which you used to differ.” Verse 5:48
2 April, 2008 at 9:15 am
For me all Muslims have to be considered potential murderers and I am more and more convinced of that every time I read that kind of propaganda written by Amin and the likes…
Now a few pages about foreign workers in Dubai… and just wait that the oil money invested there by the Iranian mullahs gets to an end and this false paradise will look like hell :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4249223.stm
and they are living in labour camps:
http://realvisionhomes.com/multilistingsservice/2008/03/labour-camp-for-sale-in-sona-pure-2/
and have no rights at all:
http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/07/06/12/10131775.html
And I guess it is still better to be called an ignorant racist white Westerner than to be a Muslim…..
2 April, 2008 at 10:48 am
TO THE DUMB & DUMBER (Bulldog & Ronin)
You both are the biggest liars and most deceptive persons I’ve ever seen in my life. I don’t even know where to start, with the gigantic magnitude of your lies.
It is easy to pick a history or biography book of somebody, ignore a thousand pages of good deeds and pick the few lines about odd and isolated events from here and there, amplify it and say how bad that person was, based on those few words and hide the rest of the thousand pages. This is the meanest way of deceiving people, and this is exactly what you are doing. Following this methodology you can portray anybody as being evil as you like, even mother Teresa!
Bulldog, So you have read about the 3 poets who were killed and haven’t read anything about the conquer of Mecca by Muslims. People of Mecca who preferred to worship their idols (statues) and refused the new massage to worship one God, have treated prophet Mohammed and his followers in the worst way. They abused them for 13 years, they put them under extreme humiliation, tortured and killed them, they harmed them in every possible way. After Muslims were ordered by God to leave Mecca and immigrate to Medina (Hijra) to preserve their lives, people of Mecca didn’t leave them alone, they followed them, tried to assassinate prophet Mohammed on his way to Medina. After their failure, they declared war on the new small Muslim community at Medina. For another 9 years they tried to destroy Muslims at every chance. Finally when Muslims had enough power to defeat the polytheist armies of Mecca and conquer Mecca itself what happened? If Prophet Mohammed was a monster as you fool try to depict, he would’ve killed them all, right? WRONG. After Muslim armies surrounded the city of Mecca, he told his sour enemies who fought him for 22 years: GO YOU ARE FREE. Yes he didn’t harm any single one of them. Most of them became Muslims afterwards, and those who remained polytheists were left alone. Even the woman who assassinated the Prophet’s dearest uncle wasn’t harmed by anyway.
I’m sure bulldog had read that and hundreds of similar events but decided not to mention it since it doesn’t serve his evil purposes.
So the Quran describes Jews as apes and pegs? This is the clearest example on how much a big liar are you. Jews are mentioned in hundreds of verses in the Quran, and in all of them are mainly addressed by two names: People of the Book and Sons of Israel. The first being used for Christians too since both have received Holy books from God, and the second name reference to their father Jacob, a prophet who was called Israel as well. The one verse that mentioned dogs and pegs was talking about God’s punishment to a group of Jews who refused to follow Gods orders and killed his prophets.
About Jesus. Yes, Muslims don’t believe that Jesus is the son of God, since God has no sons or daughters, and this contradicts with the basics of Monotheism. If we believed that Jesus is the son of God because he came without a father, then Adam and Eve are also the son and daughter of God! And the divinity thing contradicts with the principle that every human is responsible for his own deeds before God, and will be Judged only by his acts.
Ronin, so Islam has expanded by violence? And your bulldog claims that I was sleeping during history lesson! It seems you both went into coma during that lesson, or maybe had amnesia.
I don’t think the entire world was ever terrorized, humiliated, enslaved and devastated in a global scale as it was during the last few centuries. Why? Maybe because Portuguese, Spanish, British and French armies have marched through the entire world committing every imaginable war crime, occupying the lands of weak nations, enslaving their people and stealing their natural resources. Like a plague, they spread From India to China to Middle East to Africa to North and south America, killing hundreds of millions of people and enslaving millions. They had put entire human races into extinction (such as native americans). They were totally barbaric, cruel, brutal and inhumane in treating with the weaker unfortunate nations.
What about bombing civilian cities with nuclear bombs as US did in Japan. what about destroying entire villages with their citizens in Vietnam, What about slaughtering thousands of civilian Muslims like sheep in the protected UN green zones in Bosnia and the massive raping of Muslim women and young girls by Serbs while Europe and the Vatican were watching it as it was a football game! What about the millions of Africans who were kidnapped from their home lands, enslaved and treated as animals and even thrown from slavery ships to sharks when they got sick! What about burning alive people accused of witchcraft or apostasy by the Catholic church, what about the Spanish Inquisition, what about Nazis and Fachests? The list goes on and on … an endless chain of evil events by the civilized west!!!
Bottom line, you are the last nation on earth who has the right to talk about intolerance, terrorism or violence, because you are the masters of all, period.
2 April, 2008 at 11:21 am
Amin,
Blah, blah, blah…
So, you admit that Muhammad slaughtered innocent civilians. That’s a start.
Tu quoque is a lame way to distract from the issue. The USA is NOT a religion, it is a Nation. Get over it. We’re talking about a supposed RELIGION of PEACE.
I see that you took my advice are busy converting your “misunderstanders” of Islam on THEIR jihadi websites… Not!
You arguments are pathetic.
“…ignore a thousand pages of good deeds and pick the few lines about odd and isolated events from here and there, amplify it and say how bad that person was…”
Should I also turn a blind eye to Hitler? He did GREAT things for the German people. He was well liked. He was an affable person. But he was a mass murderer, JUST LIKE MUHAMMAD.
Sorry, but your argument doesn’t hold up. It doesn’t matter HOW many nice things an individual has done in their life once they start slaughtering people like cattle.
Let ME leave YOU with a quote from Jesus prophesying about Muhammad:
“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits…” Matthew 7:15-16
2 April, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Bulldog,
when did I admit that Prophet Mohammed slaughtered innocent civilians??? Are you on drugs or something!!
Yes USA is not a religion, Europe is not too, but aren’t you supposed to be the leaders of Christian world? What about your churches and priests, shouldn’t they have said something about enslaving and destroying other nations? Their silence and even stimulating rule means they were completely satisfied by the western imperial policy of destroying non-Christian nations. Was this approved by the Bible and Jesus teachings? If not then which religion they represent exactly?
Wasn’t Hitler a Christian?? Are you convicting yourself? Or you think Hitler was a Muslim too!!
I will leave you with a verse from the Quran: ” The Messenger (Mohammed) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and so do the believers. Each one believes in Allah (God), His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. They say we make no distinction between one another of His Messengers, and they say we hear and we obey. We seek your forgiveness our Lord, and to You is the return (of all)”. Verse 2:285
2 April, 2008 at 12:26 pm
The last chapter of the bible explains us that in the end of times the Anti-christ will stand up. How we can recognize the anti-christ?
The anti-christ says that God has not got a son. Muslim = Anti-christ
Islam is from the devil
2 April, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Dutchy,
So anyone who says God has no sons is anti-Christ and from the devil?? this means all the world except Christians are anti-Christ and devils, including Jews and Muslims…and all prophets from Noah to David!
Yes at the end of times the Anti-christ will stand up.. we believe in that too because Prophet Mohammed said so. He said also that Jesus Christ will descend from Heavens and lead the final battle against the Anti-Christ, and eventually kills him..
So you are mistaken dood! the description doesn’t fit Muslims. Try Again…
2 April, 2008 at 1:03 pm
“Bulldog, So you have read about the 3 poets who were killed and haven’t read anything about the conquer of Mecca by Muslims” Blah, blah, blah…
You see, by your acknowledgment of the 3 poets without being able to clearly show that they were not ordered killed by Muhammad is to concede the point and thus admit the point. But, if I misspoke for you, and you think I am not telling the truth, let me help you:
Assassination of Ashraf - Sahih Bukhari and In the Sahih Muslim (better reference)
The Assassination of the poetess while suckling her child in the dead of night:
The murder of Sallam Huqayq:
The Beheading of the slave (POW - if you prefer) Ocba:
The Torture and Killing of the Jew, Kinanah in an attempt to find some buried treasure:
Ye shall know them by their fruits….
2 April, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Bulldog, do you think anybody who says prophet Mohammed did this and that is a reliable source. we have a full field of study of Sunnah (Prophet’s sayings and actions) and classifications of it according to Matn (contents) and Sanad (chain of people who transferred it from one generation to another). Based on all that Sunnah is classified into trustworthy (Saheeh), Good (Hasan), weak (Daeef) and false (Mawdoa).
All what you mentioned, especially the Ishaq’s (an unknown person) falls under the false classification. It is a very clear fraud and ill-fabricated. “She has five children should I feel sorry about her…No Mohammed says…” come on, this is more lame than Hollywood movies. Muslims never killed any woman.
The only right incident is the one about Ka’ab bin Ashraf, he was leading the propaganda war against Muslims and provoking polytheist tribes against them. Killing an enemy in the time of war is not a crime…or is it?
2 April, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Yeah, you apologists are all alike… If you don’t like the message, discredit the messenger…
Ibn Ishaq’s compilation of Islamic scripture - the inspired Sira, or biography of the prophet - is the earliest and most accurate accounting of Muhammad’s life and of the formation of Islam. It was compiled a century before Tabari, Muslim, and Bukhari - the next earliest sources.
And, if I may continue to quote one of my associates:
“If you care enough about your soul and about the nature of truth, prophets, and God to learn and think for yourself, here’s what you need to do. First, I want you to check the Islamic archives for religious material. What you’ll discover is that everyone recognizes that the oldest surviving record of Muhammad and the formation of Islam was written by Ibn Ishaq. You’ll learn that Ishaq’s original manuscript has been lost but that Hisham retained much of what he wrote. Unfortunately, according to Hisham, he censored Ishaq a hundred years later because he recognized that much of what was known about Muhammad was unflattering. Sadly, you’ll discover that most all of what Hisham left is unflattering too.
Then you’ll discover that Tabari had a copy of Ishaq’s Sira or Sirat and faithfully reported everything. Therefore, if you want to know how Muhammad saw himself, if you want to know what he did and what he said, you’ll need to read Ishaq’s and Tabari’s chronological collection of Hadith. That is the ONLY way to know him and to understand the formation of Islam–to see it in context and from the viewpoint of the only early sources. Not a single word was written about Muhammad, Mecca, Allah, or Islam by any secular historian or by any Muslim scholar within Islam’s first century. All that we know about Muhammad and the creation of the Qur’an is either in Ishaq’s Sira, derived from Ishaq’s Sira, or deduced from hearsay–oral tradition–over two hundred years removed from Muhammad’s death.”
So, you wish to discount a source that was written about 100 years before the Sahih Bukhari???? You are an odd fellow indeed…
Now that you have admitted to one killing of a “propagandist” i.e. - Poet/Journalist, you wish to justify it by saying it was in a time of war… Interesting… Jesus had numerous “propagandists” saying terrible things about him, and he never felt compelled to kill them…
Ye shall know them by their fruits…
(interesting… I have yet to find where in the Qur’an it tells you how to spot a false prophet, however, the Torah AND the New Testament do….)
But, be that as it may, by your logic, Osama bin Laden would be justified in killing “propagandists” i.e. - journalists - because it is a time of war… I’ll be sure to alert the Press…
4 April, 2008 at 2:17 am
whatever propagandas were made, we should know that the religions teach and containing a peacefull. but for the each followers, all can be different with many various understanding and perpective. i just want say, in all religion, there’s have a moderate, radical and other in understanding. with this phenomena, in this case, i view, this is a ‘war’ who created by radical group which will response by other radical. unfortunately, this such propaganda will trigging else event continuing violent.
5 April, 2008 at 1:46 am
Guys,
All this religious hatred has got to stop, seriously.
5 April, 2008 at 10:36 am
I am confused I have seen no one hate a religion. Now one cult does come to mind.
6 April, 2008 at 1:04 am
TO BULLDOG & RONIN
I can go with this debate with you forever, but there is no point of doing that. So this will probably be my last post here.
Bulldog, since you are a strong believer in Ibn Ishaq Sira, then you must believe in the dozens of stories, in the same book, about Jews and Christians of that time knowing that prophet Mohammed was the apostle of God. Their delegates have met with him and they tested his truthfulness, and yet didn’t follow him and fought him for different reasons (Jews because he was not a Jew as they hoped for, and Christians because he was against the Trinity concept and claiming Jesus as son of God).
Anyway, you both have initiated this blog to advertise the Fitna hatred propaganda and to ridicule and attack Islam and the Quran. So I have a couple of suggestions for you.
1) If you want to educate yourself away from the useless racist propaganda like Fitna, and know about Islam from fair western sources, there are many documentaries made by historians and specialists explaining the Islamic history, civilisation, clash with the western world, and what is Islam all about. Some of these are:
- Islam: Empire of Faith, by Ben Kingsley
- Inside Islam (History Channel) (2002)
- The Crusades - Crescent & The Cross (History Channel) (2005)
- Decoding the Past - Secrets of the Koran (History Channel) (2006)
- Mohammed: Legacy of a Prophet (UPF) (www.upf.tv)
- The Rise and Fall of Islamic Spain (UPF & Gardner Movies) (www.upf.tv)
- The Message (30th Anniversary Edition) (1976), by Anthony Quinn
- Or you can just check wikipedia on topics such as “Islamic Golden Age”, “Muslim History”, “Al-Andalus”, “Crusades”, etc.
- http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/
You can find most of the above (sold on DVDs) on amazon.com.
2) Instead of wasting your time and energy on this hatred campaign, why don’t you make yourselves useful and guide your people to believe in God. According to latest surveys, by BBC and others, two thirds of Europeans doesn’t believe in God! If similar survey was made in USA, I expect the rate would be around 50%. Just watch any western science program to know that they have replaced God with “Mother Nature” or “Universe”. Evolution is taught in your schools as a fact while creation is forbidden because it has religious contents. So why don’t you both enlighten your people and convince them that God exists!
“Say (O Mohammed) He is Allah (God), the One (1), Allah the Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need (2), He begets not, nor was He begotten (3), And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him (4)” Sura 112.
6 April, 2008 at 9:24 am
Amin,
I have never believed mohammed to be anything other than a criminal and have found nothing in the hundreds of books and thousands of articles I have read to change my mind. Frankly any deity that would pick such a man as a role model is in my book stupid and not worthy of human worship. To be fair I have noticed the Christians have a charter to take the worst of mankind into the fold. The difference is they change them for the better. Even in the most whitewashed of islamic histories mohammed grew increasingly violent as he aged and his criminal activities intensified.
We put Fitna online because we found nothing wrong with it. The verbiage coming for senior islamic clerics has proven to be even more outrageous then what we see in Fitna. You are correct I do tend to ridicule islam but what you failed to mention is I never have to make anything up. I simply expose muslims acting out their religious duty and hold them accountable, nothing more. If your fellow believers embarrass you then you should attempt to change them not me.
I have learned a few truths along the way and here are the highlights:
-Islam is an oppressive and violent ideology masquerading as a religion.
-The deity Allah is not the same God worshiped by Christians and Jews.
.
-By today’s standards mohammed would be considered an insane and murderous man.
-Islam has a political arm, a military arm, a recruitment arm and a propaganda/apologist arm.
-There are no moderate muslims, just practicing and non-practicing. All believers of mohammed are guilty of at least passive support to the global engine that is islam. Passive support is still support.
-Westerners still have much to learn about muslim goals, methods and attempts to misdirect them away from them or excuse them away.
-There is no possible moral equivalency between islam and any other main stream religion.
You called this a hate campaign I consider it as an attempt to stop one. Islams hate campaign and goal of world domination is a direct threat to everything I believe in. I will continue to do this as long as I am able. When and if it ever becomes a crime to speak out I guess I’ll follow in the shoes of mohammed and become a criminal. Allahu ackbar baby.
6 April, 2008 at 10:24 am
Just because some Jews and Christians were fooled by Muhammad, doesn’t make him a prophet. If Muhammad didn’t go around ordering people to be killed and enslaving women and children (which, by the way, is the REAL reason women were rarely ordered killed by Muhammad, they were a valuable commodity for trade, barter, and sex), then I would give him a little more leeway.
Like I said before, even Hitler had his good side, but that doesn’t change the fact that he was a mass murderer. Had Hitler actually won WWII, then I’m sure he would have been turned into a saint by the sycophants around him that were also reaping the rewards…
THAT is exactly what happened to your false prophet, Muhammad!
Also, as to Muhammad supposedly not killing women, that’s just wrong. He did allow women to be killed:
Bukhari:Vol 4 Book 52 No. 256 “The Prophet passed by and was asked whether it was permissible to attack infidels at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, ‘Their women and children are from them.’”
You should REALLY re-read that a few times to fully absorb the impact of what he is saying…
Also, in the”Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir” written by Ibn Sa’d — Vol 2, page 168 (of the English translation by Moinul Haq):
“The apostle of Allah entered through Adhakhir, [into Mecca], and prohibited fighting.
He ordered six men and four women to be killed, they were (1) Ikrimah Ibn Abi Jahl, (2) Habbar Ibn al-Aswad, (3) Abd Allah Ibn Sa’d Ibn Abi Sarh, (4) Miqyas Ibn Sababah al-Laythi, (5) al-Huwayrith Ibn Nuqaydh, (6) Abd Abbah Ibn Hilal Ibn Khatal al-Adrami, (7) Hind Bint Utbah, (
Sarah, the mawlat (enfranchised girl) of Amr Ibn Hashim, (9) Fartana and (10) Qaribah.
And, just for verification, the Sirat corroborates the Tabaqat’s list, a little at a time.
Here’s an excerpt from page 550 of the Sirat:
“Another [to be killed] was Abdullah Khatal of B. Taym b. Ghalib. He had become a Muslim and the apostle sent him to collect the poor tax in company with one of the Ansar. He had with him a freed slave who served him. (He was Muslim). When they halted he ordered the latter to kill a goat for him and prepare some food, and went to sleep. When he woke up the man had done nothing, so he attacked and killed him and apostatized. He had two singing-girls Fartana and her friend who used to sing satirical songs about the apostle, so he ordered that they should be killed with him.”
And, the Sahih Bukhari, while trying to cover up the killing of women (remember, it was written 100 years AFTER Ibn Ishaq wrote his book, and Bukhari even admits to censoring the numerous sayings of and about Muhammad), it does corroborate the story in snippets:
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 582:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
On the day of the Conquest, the Prophet entered Mecca, wearing a helmet on his head. When he took it off, a man came and said, “Ibn Khatal is clinging to the curtain of the Ka’ba.” The Prophet said, “Kill him.” (Malik a sub-narrator said, “On that day the Prophet was not in a state of Ihram as it appeared to us, and Allah knows better.”
Now, to be honest, I will reveal that ONE of the two slave girls was NOT killed:
On page 551 of the Sirat, we find:
“As for Ibn Khatal’s two singing girls, one was killed and the other ran away until the apostle, asked for immunity, gave it to her.”
So, Muhammad, ever the merciful, let one of the two girls live…
But, that doesn’t change the fact that he ordered women to be killed!!!
So, go ahead, go away from here and follow your false prophet to your hearts content, just know that he IS a false prophet and you are destine for Hell, just like Muhammad when he died.
But, even the false prophet admits in his Qur’an that JESUS IS ALIVE!
Jesus is THE Savior.
John 3:16 - “For God so loved the world that he gave his ONLY begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him SHALL NOT PERISH, but have EVERLASTING LIFE.”
Jesus never took a single life, yet the record clearly shows that Muhammad had thousands killed.
P.S. - Remember what I said in my very first comment to you?:
If you had listened, you could have saved yourself a LOT of typing!
Ye shall know them by their fruits…